Dear fellow Christians who believe in pre-trib rapture...?

Question

Speaking of His return in Luke 17, the Lord Jesus says from verse 28,
"Likewise, even as it happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building;"
Verse 29 - "But ON THE DAY in which Lot went out from Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all."
Verse 30 - "It will be IN THE SAME WAY on the day in which the Son of Man is revealed."

If we read the account of the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah in Genesis 19, we see that after the righteous Lot was evacuated, judgement fell upon the two cities IMMEDIATELY(verses 22 - 24).
Doesn't this picture from the Lord show us that the interval between the rapture of the church & the judgement of the ungodly will be brief, rather than the 7 years which is commonly believed among those of a pre-trib perspective ?

Your thoughts, please ?

Thanks in advance for all polite, sincere answers.

May God bless you.

JC Superstar -

Re Mark 9:1 - Please read the verse IN CONTEXT. What follows ? What is witnessed by Peter, James, and John ?

Mark 13:30 - 31 -

The Greek "genea" translated "generation" -

Arndt and Gingrich in their "A Greek - English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature" concede that the term means, "literally, those descended from a common ancestor" (P.153).

G. Abbott - Smith writes that the Greek word genea means, "race, stock, family" (Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, 2nd edition, P.89 ).

Also check out the following link regarding the usage of "genea" in the NT -

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue100b.htm#_edn3

Answer 1

Scripture does not make clear as to "when" exactly the dead in Christ rise and then those who are alive and remain are caught up. I personally choose to believe and live like we are going through the Tribulation and if it happens before then I will still be ready. Preparing myself to endure until the end, whenever that is.

Answer 2

Half and half? The Son of Man was already revealed to Abraham from his position above Sodom. Intercession was being made even as the Angels were sent down. Revealed and rapture are not the same thing and Lot is the nominal church left behind.

The pre-trib rapture goes to the wise and foolish virgins. Part go and part are left. This revealing is secretly made to the wise virgins, only those with the oil. It may make no more of a dent in world activity then the advent of Jesus did in his day. Try 36 months into the tribulation which has already begun.

We stand at the point where the Angels have shut the door on Lot's house and people have been struck blind.

Answer 3

I was raised in a pre-trib family and a pre-trib church. This was one of the passages that no one could explain to me and it actually make Biblical sense. People would try to get around this passage as well as the Olivet Discourse in Matthew which they say is speaking only of Israel, but that is reading a lot into the context.

This passage makes perfect sense with the Pre-Wrath Rapture which is what I believe now. The Pre-Wrath view teaches that we as Christians will be present for most of the 7 year period. We will be there for the 3.5 years of peace, and then we will be there when the Anti-Christ starts persecution of those that believe. But before the 7-year period ends, God will cut short the persecution of the Anti-Christ, rapture his elect, and pour out his wrath on the world. In other words, we are here for the persecution of the Anti-Christ, but gone for the wrath of God, hence the Pre-Wrath name.

If you look at account of Noah in Genesis, he was told that in 7 days, the rains would begin and that he was to gather the animals and get them onto the ark. It then goes on to say that on the very day that Noah finished the task and got the last of the animals and his family on the ark, the rain began. The end will be just like this. Jesus even compared the end times to the days of Noah. When he takes his elect away from the world, his wrath begins immediately.

Sorry I am not giving references. I am on a break at work and don't have the time to look them up. I really don't want to go through the tribulation, and I think that is why a lot of people fall for the Pre-Trib argument. As Terry Goodkind has said, people will believe a lie either because they want it to be true or they are afraid it is true. People believe it because they don't want to deal with the tribulation. I would much rather be ready for it and then be wrong if the Lord comes back before the Tribulation than say that I won't worry about it because I won't be there for it and then be caught unaware.

Answer 4

show your mother this, hopefully it will clear some things up or at least make questions arise : Secret Rapture Non Sense: because it is a LIE that has decieved Millions!!! there is NO Scriptural support for a "secret rapture", Jesus' 2nd Coming will be Visible, Audible, Glorious, Literal and FINAL...Acts 1:10,11 / Luke 24:38,39 / Rev. 1:7 / Matthew 24:30 / Matthew 24:27 / Matthew 24:31 / 1 Thess. 4:16,17/Psalm 50:3 / Rev. 6:14 / Matthew 16:27, 25:31 / Rev. 22:11,12...this theory originated in the Dark Ages. Many Bible scholars had noticed there would be serious problems in the Christian church; others refused to acknowledge it. To avoid discussion of the issues, 2 clergymen were assigned to come up with a theory that would divert attention away from the Christian church. A scholar named Alcazar developed a theory that said most of the Bible prophecy had already been fulfilled in the distant past (Theory named "preterism) therefore the Bible couldn't possibly be talking about the Christian church. Cardinal Riberia designed another theory that has come to be known as "futurism" which is similiar to the modern rapture theory. This theory states that most of the Bible prophecy would be fulfilled in a final short burst of history, and therefore the Bible couldn't be talking about the problems in the church of his day. The Theory - which is a complete fabrication devised to accomplish a political purpose almost 5oo yrs. ago - is still with us today. It essentially teaches that the OT prophets couldn't see the Christian church. They were able to see the Cross and the Second Coming, but nothing in between. This effectively eliminated the possibility that the prophets saw problems in the Christian church. Even those who teach this theory today admit it is not found in Scripture.

Answer 5

The church, that is God's elect, is the only reason why the world still stands.

While God's own remain in the world they have the effect of salt in preserving and holding back the Judgement.

Remove the Elect and the Judgement must commence. There is no reason to allow sinners to continue to sin if none are going to repent or be saved out from the world. Were any to be saved after such an event, what would they be added to if the church has already been removed? That is absurd. It is a foolish muddle by empty headed thinking without knowing God. It is also blasphemous for it implies God to be responsible for the continued sin of those who will not repent when the reason for grace has been removed. That idea is anathema.

The world is already under judgement and God is taking out a people for Himself. The world and all that offends is to be destroyed as is shown by the example of the old one at the time of Noah and there is to be a new heaven and earth.

The End is delayed only for that purpose, to bring in all the elect that should be saved and whatever purposes God designs for that elect.

When Christ returns it is for His Elect, His Bride. There is no other purpose.

When He comes and His reward is with Him how can He not reward the wicked? How simply silly.

Once that event occurs, it is the End.

As to the tribulation - is not the true church of God in tribulation and has been since Christ ascended? Even in this country, under Bloody Mary who burned countless of God's cherished people who held to purity of conscience and faith toward God in the face of the Antichristian Roman Catholic persecutions, was that not tribulation?

Not to mention the widespread, merciless and devilish treatment, tortures and murders of God's people in Europe by the Roman Catholic Church. And similar treatment of God's people under the Roman Empire before it.

I could go on.

Time and space do not permit and still people look for an Antichrist to come and can't recognize what has been and what is?



How can the teaching of Scripture and it's continual warning be so easily subverted by such a foolish and modern invention as a rapture leaving the wicked behind? One that has it's origin in the dreams and revelations of two foolish Irvingite women in the nineteenth century.

Pah!

Answer 6

Carl, "In the same way" or "In like manner" does NOT mean EXACT.
Personally, after I became a christian many years ago, I was not even aware that there was an "inhouse" debate on this.
So without having ANY view, I decided to study it for myself.

First I read all scripture passages that seemed to bear on it.
THEN, I read the different views; Pro and Con by each views leading proponents.
After about 2-3 years devoted to this study, I was convinced that the Pre-trib view was in fact the correct one.
Im not going to go into here all of the reasons why, but suffice to say, I think the evidence is so overwhelming (its the only view where ALL scripture can be beautifully harmonized) that I wont even bother to debate it anymore.
I find most people so convinced that there own view is correct that they dont really even LOOK at the other sides arguments anymore. They say they do. But I find, in fact they dont.
If anyone cares to; they may email me and I would be happy to share some reasons for the Pre-trib view which I feel is unaswerable.

But to each their own. Post-tribbers can just change their view "on the way up". lol


....theBerean

Answer 7

Premillennialists often give much attention to the doctrine of the rapture. According to this doctrine, when Christ returns, all of the elect who have died will be raised and transformed into a glorious state, along with the living elect, and then be caught up to be with Christ. The key text referring to the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, which states, "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."

Premillennialists hold, as do virtually all Christians (except certain postmillennialists), that the Second Coming will be preceded by a time of great trouble and persecution of God’s people (2 Thess. 2:1–4). This period is often called the tribulation. Until the nineteenth century, all Christians agreed that the rapture—though it was not called that at the time—would occur immediately before the Second Coming, at the close of the period of persecution. This position is today called the "post-tribulational" view because it says the rapture will come after the tribulation.

But in the 1800s, some began to claim that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism. Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history.

Eventually, a third position developed, known as the "mid-tribulational" view, which claims that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. Finally, a fourth view developed that claims that there will not be a single rapture where all believers are gathered to Christ, but that there will be a series of mini-raptures that occur at different times with respect to the tribulation.

This confusion has caused the movement to split into bitterly opposed camps.

The problem with all of the positions (except the historic, post-tribulational view, which was accepted by all Christians, including non-premillennialists) is that they split the Second Coming into different events. In the case of the pre-trib view, Christ is thought to have three comings—one when he was born in Bethlehem, one when he returns for the rapture at the tribulation’s beginning, and one at tribulation’s end, when he establishes the millennium. This three-comings view is foreign to Scripture.

Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote: "Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject.
. . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it" (The Word of Truth, 556–7).

Answer 8

My Church doesn't really dive in to the pre-tib rapture, not that they don't believe in it, we just try to go day to day doing the best we can.

I've seen movies on it, I've had dreams about it, I've read books on it, but I don't think it will happen the way those stories were depicted.

Perhaps we go through these mini-times too, I have three kids, two were crossing the street to go to school across the way. They were both standing together holding hands, a speeding driver came out of no where.

One child was taken, one wasn't, the one who was taken was the most religious and the one that was left now has time to gather her religious status.

I don't know if it will happen all at once, slowly, or once in every persons individual life.

Answer 9

First things first... You cite Luke 17 as talking about "rapture," yet THIS CONTEXT is about the COMING OF THE KINGDOM -- cf. Luke 17:20 Once the Pharisees asked Jesus when God’s kingdom would come. He replied, “The coming of God’s kingdom is not something you can see just by watching for it carefully. 21 People will not say, ‘Here it is.’ Or, ‘There it is.’ GOD'S KINGDOM IS AMONG YOU.”

On this same subject, we also see:
Mark 9:1 Jesus said to them, “What I’m about to tell you is true. Some who are standing here will not die before they see GOD'S KINGDOM COMING with power.”

and John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not part of this world. If it were, those who serve me would fight. They would try to keep the Jews from arresting me. My kingdom is from another place.”

The text clearly indicates these events coming during the lifetime of the disciples. The only historic event that fits all these things is THE COMING OF THE CHURCH on Pentecost.


Now, to the "rapture" eschatology... The CLEAR LANGUAGE of 2Peter makes it clear that NOTHING will be "left behind" at Jesus' return:
2Peter 3:7 BY GOD’S WORD THE HEAVENS AND EARTH OF TODAY ARE BEING RESERVED FOR FIRE. They are being kept for the day when God will judge. Then ungodly people will be destroyed.
...
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. THE HEAVENS WILL DISAPPEAR WITH A ROAR. FIRE WILL DESTROY EVERYTHING IN THEM. God will judge the earth and everything in it.
11 So everything will be destroyed. And what kind of people should you be? You should lead holy and godly lives.
12 Live like that as you look forward to the day of God. It will make the day come more quickly. ON THAT DAY FIRE WILL DESTROY THE HEAVENS. ITS HEAT WILL MELT EVERYTHING IN THEM.

Peter is describing what can be called a reverse "Big Bang." After the return of Jesus, the universe itself will no longer exist.

If, as Peter clearly writes, "everything will be destroyed," then the entire basis of "rapture" is false. One of the main "rules" of exegesis, or, the science of Biblical interpretation, is:
"Figurative language cannot be properly interpreted in a way that conflicts with the clear language of scripture."
Since "rapture" requires twisting or distorting several points of clear language to comply with it, it should be regarded as false. The true interpretation of that figurative language, mostly from Revelation, MUST lie elsewhere.

Answer 10

I used to get wrapped up in rapture theology but we are asked not to argue over words. If there is a pre-trib then great we miss all the hassle but if you are wrong you really are in for a few unpleasent surprises. Whichever way you view it, it's not going to happen until the whole world hears the Gospel of Christ. That has to be our main focus otherwise it's going to drag on for a long time......it's down to us folks.