Mary is dead, and can't hear you "praying" to her?

Question

This is what CJ tells us, but what does the bible tell us?

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

So which one is right!?

Kait:
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).

more for Kait:
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.

Answer 1

Genghis is talking about the Communion of saints. Saints being all believers in Christ since we have found life everlasting.

The word in the Bible for “saint” or “saints” is the word hagios or hagiois also translated “sanctified” or “holy ones”. Hagios means to be separated from sin and therefore consecrated to God. It is Paul who calls all his fellow believers “saints,” and not just the notably holy ones. Paul also uses the term for both those who are living and for those who are dead. We find this most notably in 2 Thess 1:9-10:
“These (who do not acknowledge God nor heed the good news) will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power, when he comes to be glorified among his holy ones (hagiois) and to be marveled at on that day among all who have believed, for our testimony to you was believed.”

Also in Jude 14-15:
“Enoch, of the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied also about them when he said, ‘Behold, the Lord has come with his countless holy ones (hagiais) to execute judgment on all and to convict everyone for all the godless deeds that they committed…”


This practice of Paul corresponds to one of the earliest creedal statements of Christian faith: The Apostles Creed: “I believe in the communion of saints.” Communion of saints refers to the bond of unity among all believers, both living and dead, who are or have been committed followers of Jesus Christ. In the eyes of God, in eternity, the distinction between His People who are ‘living’ or who are ‘dead’ is not at all important. This statement is supported by the following Scripture verses:

Mk 9:4 “Then Elijah appeared to them along with Moses, and they were conversing with Jesus.”

Mk 12:26-27 “As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled.”

Rom 12:5 …so we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another.

Rom 8:38-9 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



This one body in Christ is called by the Catholic Church as The Mystical Body of Christ. The concept is explained this way in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: “The life of each of God’s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person.” (par. 1474)

Since we are “members one of another,” we can, in Christ and only in Christ, seek the prayers and help of fellow members of the Body, both here and in Heaven. Seeing as all believers as a whole make up the one body in Christ, we are all connected to each other with Christ at the head.

James Cardinal Gibbons explains Luke 15:
“ The angels are glad whenever you repent of your sins. Now, what is repentance? It is a change of heart. It is an interior operation of the will. The saints, therefore, are acquainted –we know not how – not only with your actions and words, but even with your very thoughts.” (Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, p.127)


‘Dead saints’ aware of earthly events

What would be the point of asking for intercessory prayers if the people we are asking are not aware of us or of our prayers? Well we can find that they ARE aware of us in:
Heb 12:1 “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.”

Mt 17:3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

(If Jesus didn’t want any contact between saints on earth and saints in heaven, why did our Lord make a special point of appearing to Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration in the company of Moses and Elijah, two ‘dead’ saints? (Patrick Madrid))

Rev 6:9-10 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?

Luke 15:10 …There is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.



We have just learned that the ‘dead saints’ are indeed aware of earthly doings, but can they do anything about it? Are there intercessory prayers effective? Of course there are. Prayers of the righteous availeth much (Jas 5:16). Who are more righteous than those in heaven?

I feel I must make clear that Jesus alone is our mediator, John Henry Cardinal Newman pointed out:
The Catholic Church allows no…Saint, not even the Blessed Virgin herself, to come between the soul and its Creator…The devotions then to angels and saints as little interfered with the incommunicable glory of the Eternal, as the love which we bear our friends and relations, our tender human sympathies, are inconsistent with that supreme homage of the heart to the Unseen. (Newman, Apologia Pro Vita Sua, p.284-285)

We can therefore see that asking saints to pray for us (whether they are ‘living’ or ‘dead’) is acceptable, approved by God, and availeth much. The communion of the Saints is nothing more that the recognition that saints after death (and angels) are more alive than us, aware of happenings on earth, desirous of aiding us, and able to be asked for help and to assist us with their prayers of intercessions, always through Jesus, just as saints who are still ‘alive’ are able to do for us.

God Bless
Robin

Answer 2

First, when one says that the saints are dead, he is not acknowledging that there is life after death. Christians are supposed to worship the God of the living, not of the dead. We have the hope of being resurrected into new life and living eternally with God in heaven. Therefore, all of the saints are very much alive.

Secondly, the Bible tells us that the angels rejoice whenever even one sinner repents. The saints are ranked above the angels. In fact, 1 Corinthians even tells us that the saints will one day judge the angels.

Now, if the angels are quite aware of what is happening on the earth, considering that they know every time a man repents...then of course the saints would also be aware of what is occurring on the earth.

"There is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." (Luke15:10)

*********

Obviously, CJ, and a few others, need to do a little more reading and also look into what the doctrine of the "communion of saints" actually teaches. Even the protestants claim to believe in the communion of saints when reciting the Apostles' Creed, yet they have no understanding of the concept.

Answer 3

This is actually in response to Dr. G's reponse:

Dear, there is a difference between "mediator" and "intercessor."
Saints intercede, sacraments which Jesus instituted are the channels and therefore could be considered mediating.

The Holy Spirit is not really just an intercessor in the sense like saints do, He is God Himself. He mediates in a way that He inspires us to do good instead of bad, to follow God's will.

Jesus Christ is God Himself, and he "mediated" for us when he was in human form here on earth, and continues to do so through the Eucharist. It's just simple. God is the Blessed Trinity. One Being in three Divine Persons.

Ergo, "mediate" in all the Bible verses you posted is not the "mediation" people claim Catholics believe saints do. Even the word "intercession" in your given Bible verse is used in another way. What's in a word?

There is no arguing that no one would have access to God's throne. Saints don't do that. They don't replace prayer. They accompany them. We don't assume they grant the prayers, it's God who grants them, through the saint's intercession -- something God has instituted for them.

The lines have been taken out of context. And it's another version, the kind I don't understand. Sorry.

And when Our Lord was on the Cross, and St. John and Our Lady were at his feet, He said, "Son, beyond they Mother. Mother, behold thy son." Which indicates that Mary, the greatest of all saints, is the mother of mankind. What is a mother but someone who cares, guides and helps? Of course she does that in heaven for us. She is the being closest to God anyway. Hello, she conceived Him!

Answer 4

Another important point to consider.

Scripture tells us that our God is the God of the living, not of the dead. Mary and the Saints are alive in heaven, in the presence of the Angels, Jesus, and God Almighty. How do we know this? Did not Jesus promise the man who was crucified along with Him that he would join Him in paradise on that very day? Would not Jesus do the same for Mary upon her death? Of course he would.

Peace be with you.

Answer 5

Actually I must say that I don't understand you rpoint, and to use scripture to make the point that we should not pray to sainst, who in the scripture that you provided is absurd, to qoute:
"[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
Therefore the saints are already praying for us, to ask them to do so is no harm to you nor I. Secondly, what greater saint than the Mother of Jesus Christ himself, giving Him up fully so that we may be forgiving for our transgressions, therefore making the ultimate sacrifice herself as mother. Ask any mother if they would prefer to die in the place of their son.
So Mary the Mother of God is the greatest of all saints, therefore praying for all of us, and to ask her to intercede as she did in the wedding of Cana for us with her son Christ Jesus in not done trivially.
Not stating that prayers cannot be done directly to God, Jesus or the Spirit, but we can definately ask those who have gone before us to as it is put in the same readings you used, the choir around God for us.
People, Catholics, since I know you are directing this towards us, do not pray to saints or Mary in the place of God, we pray to them to help us so that our prayer reaches God.

Answer 6

We pray to saints to ask them to pray for us, in the same way you might pray for me if I ask and I would pray for you if you ask. Christians are called to pray for each other: James 5:16 "Pray one for another...


The secular world rightly honors its heroes ..... the brave soldiers, the brilliant scientists, the artists and it even makes up pretend heroes with the Batmans and Supermans found in comic books. For Catholics, the hero is a man of virtue, and the heroine is the woman whose dedication to Christ makes her truly worthy of respect.


"To pray," as a verb, has two very distinct meanings:

1 to make a request in a humble manner
2 to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving.



Hebrews 12:1 tells us that we are surrounded by a "great cloud of witnesses"! Think of it! We are surrounded not only by God's Love, the Spirit of the Comforter, and the marvelous evidence of His greatness -- sacramental nature, but we are surrounded by His angels and His saints who pray for us and intercede for us! The entire universe glorifies His name!

This thorougly Scriptural and Catholic view is expressed in the phrase "The Communion of Saints," used to describe the concept of the Mystical Body of Christ (His Church) being made of three parts: the Church Militant (Christians on earth); the Church Suffering (Christians who are being cleansed in Purgatory before they stand before Almighty God), the Church Triumphant (Christians in Heaven).

Answer 7

I suspect, having read others of your questions and answers, that you know full well the answer here; that Jesus never lied about never tasting death, and that "death" here in your question never meant spiritual death, only physical death. I know, every time I pray the Rosary, and every time I think of her, that the Blessed Virgin Mary hears me, closely and clearly, and I know that every time I pray to one or another Saint, that they hear me as well, even as I type my answer to you here. And Jesus hears every thing I say or pray or think to or of any one of the Saints, or His earthly mother, Mary. Good question though, and moreso because I know you know the answer. God Bless you.

Answer 8

Those who die in Jesus are more alive and conscious than we mortals still veiled by the limits of this mortal life.
Jesus lives and in iHim do all the members of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Answer 9

Scripture

Answer 10

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" -- 2 Timothy 2:5 KJV

"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." -- Hebrews 7:25 KJV

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." -- Romans 8:26-27 KJV

"And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him." -- 1 John 5:14-15 KJV

Answer 11

the Psalms you wrote was telling everyone to praise Him not for us to pray through someone else. if Jesus is the first to rise from the dead, and its during His 2nd coming that the rest of the dead shall rise, then how can Mary or the rest pray on our behalfs? there are intercessors no doubt, but these intercessors are still alive praying to Jesus for us. there is one way to God and that's through His son. it has never said that Mary or anyone else was our high priest, it only says Jesus is our high priest, He is our mediator. Jesus said Himself there is only one way to My father and that was through Him. when we pray we end the prayer in Jesus name not Marys name or any one else name.