Question for the reputable breeders, does this happen much in show breeding...?

Question

I met someone who has a Saint Bernard, which she is bragging about being a show dog. Turns out, she got him from a breeder who is paying to show the dog to conformation and then intends to harvest his sperm for breeding. The owner has nothing to do with her dogs training or showing, a "handler" is doing it for the breeder. Now this woman is clearly one of a LOW education, I mean down right ignorant acting in all ways and rather "trashy". I found it VERY hard to believe that any reputable breeder would place a pet puppy in her home, and certainly not a show quality specimen. Is this a bad breeder, merely doing this so he can say "champion" parents and sell the pups for more? Are there many in the show world that are like this? Kind of feels like a step above a puppy mill to me since the breeder obviously doesn't care who owns his show potentials. What do you think?

I know that co-ownership is a common thing, but my understanding is that a reputable breeder is VERY selective about the homes their pups go to in general and more so with a show potential. What surprises me here is that the breeder would actually place a dog with this woman at all. Seems that the breeder doesn't care who keeps the dog, as long as he can show it and harvest from it.

This woman brought an unaltered male in to a public dog park, which is against rules of the park. She blatantly disregards this and brings in her 1 yr old male, who then gets in fights with other dogs in the park. She said he had his face "ripped" apart once.

Now, I don't know of any show breeders around these parts who would allow this sort of thing to occur with a co-owned breeding potential dog. I have yet to meet a show breeder around here who would take their prized show dogs to a public dog park and risk injury to that prized specimen...

The co-owner does not need to be super smart to co-own, but I would assume a breeder would research extensively on the potential show owner as well as have contracts prohibiting things where the "show potential" could become injured in any way. If the owner is making these kinds of bad choices, what else might she be doing wrong?

I would expect a reputable breeder, putting a male out there with co-ownership to someone without any experience, would at least take the time to educate that owner and research that potential owner extensively to confirm they will "follow the rules" set by that breeder. Inform them of what to expect from an unaltered male as he reaches sexual maturity. Not take the dog into a situation of which they would not control--this woman didn't have control of this dog at all when he got into it with the other dog, she just stood there and yelled at the other dog owner, never once attmepting to remove her dog from the situation.

This woman was clearly irresponsible and I just can't see a good breeder allowing a show dog into a home like that.

Animal_Artwork: A litttle clarification goes a long way and I didn't put all the details in. I did talk to the woman some at the park and found that her breeder isn't even in the state, so he/she is no where near by to assist her in rearing of their show potential pup. Again, that's fine, if maybe you have a network of people in the area that are willing to assist or that breeder's behalf, but from talking to her some, I'm under the impression this is not the case.

Just felt to me like this kennel/breeder doesn't much care who cares for the show dogs as long as he/she gets to breed them if they turn out to win in the ring.

Answer 1

Well, it depends.

Sometimes breeders have too many good males. It's hard to keep a lot of males since they often don't get along, and it's a nuisance when the females come into season. Or they simply feel that they can't do justice to a lot of dogs and prefer to place hopefuls in GOOD pet homes so that they can get lots of attention and live like normal pets, but keep the right to show and breed them. Not a lot of pet owners are interested in showing, so the breeder takes care of it all. In the majority of these cases, the breeder is very selective of where they place the dog and it works out well for them (they have a show/breeding dog that they don't have to look after) and the new owners (they get a high-quality pet, usually at a lesser price), and the dog (who gets to live like a normal pet).

OTOH, there are some breeders that will do this with just about any pup they produce that they feel might be showable, and will place them with just about anybody and breed just about anything. They are all about producing high numbers of champions, regardless of quality. Fortunately these people are few in number and usually don't last long in the game.

I did this once on a co-ownership basis with a friend of mine, she just wanted a pet, I had a nice boy that I wanted to show and breed but I didn't really have the space for him. I gave him to her, she took over all regular pet expenses and duties, I paid for and did all the showing (although she came to watch often). She got a free dog and bragging rights, I got a stud dog I didn't have to feed and care for.

EDIT: Yes, a good breeder would expect the owner to maintain the dog in good health and condition, and the grooming would need to be attended to as well. Even with a smooth coated dog, the nails must be kept short, the ears clean, and the teeth clean. A dog in poor condition will not do well in the ring, and is not much good for breeding either.

Answer 2

I don't know my sister got a beautiful great dane from a reputable breeder there is many grand champions in the line. However this dog is what some call fawnaquinn.
AKC themselves would not register the dog as it is not an acceptable color and since it's a dog that in unacceptable by breed standars AKC themselves told her to put the dog to sleep.
I know of several of tese reputable breeders that send their dogs off to "handlers" to train and show and maybe once or twice a year these dogs are rreturned ot the owner for about a week ( this is often just for the breeding) I also know of many that will have a perfectly healthy pup put to sleep just because it isn't show quality.
But so many are not for GOOD backyard breeders who have a dog that is perfectly healthya nd may not be show quality but is bred for a pet whick is what most people get dogs for.
Why should I pay $1000 for a pup from these reputable breeders for a pet when I can get a healthy, vacinated, vetchecked pup for less than half that prce??

Answer 3

It happens in show homes and with breeders.
Many times the breeder can not keep more than one male in the home so they may "sell" a show quality dog and it is done on a co-owner basis. One person has physical custody of the dog and keeps it and someone trains handles and shows it the breeder keeps breeding and showing rights.
It happens but most are in contact closely with the breeder and co-owner.
Most times it seems to be a good situation for many breeders. I know several who do it.

Answer 4

This sounds like nothing more than a BYB to me! No reputable show breeder even likes to sell a show quality puppy to someone who has no show experience. Because they know how much rampant ignorance there is out there. They would never trust someone with no experience to know how to socialize and train a show prospect, even if a professional was going to handle the dog.

The only times I ever sold a show puppy to a novice was on co-ownership so I'd have some control, then I kept in close contact with the people. That's one of the reasons I can't believe that no one on here ever seems to talk to their dog's breeder when they're having problems of some kind. My puppies owners and I stayed in contact, saw each other at shows, visited, etc.

So, I agree with you - this is a step above a puppy mill.

Answer 5

I want you to take a step back and think about this a little.

Just because *you* don't like someone does not mean they are not an excellent home for a dog. The breeder needs to be able to work with the owner (not you).

Lets put it this way.... This dog has a home where he is beloved. Someone (his breeder) is paying big bucks to have a handler train and show the dog as well as make sure its groomed etc... It has become rather standard amongst some breeds to ship chilled semen rather than risk shipping a b*tch cross country (it is VERY VERY difficult to ship a Saint Bernard due to their size). My guess is the breeder has retained all breeding rights.

It sounds to me as if the owner is proud of her dog.

From a breeder's point of view. What is better for the dog? Multiple unaltered males often do not get along within a household which leads to constant segregation or kenneling of one or more dogs. This dog does not have to be one of many dogs.

Are you saying the owner is abusive to the dog? That she doesn't feed him well? That he's out of shape and tied up outside and left all day? Or... is she just coarse and uneducated? Does she love her dog?

Would you prefer the dog be sold to another breeder and kept as one of many in a kennel situation so that he can be kept intact for breeding? Would you prefer he be neutered even though his breeder obviously feels he's of such fantastic quality that she is willing to pay for professional training, handling and grooming?

If the dog is well cared for and loved... please, try not to be so judgemental.

If the dog is poorly cared for, neglected and unloved, my apologies.

I'm going to raise my hand here and tell you a couple things... I'm one of those coarse, loud-mouthed people (not uneducated though)... I've placed dogs with people others turned down (I placed a big dog who went over 6 ft fences with a woman who lived in a townhouse... perfect condition for the dog because he HAD to be on a leash at all times.. every other breeder in the area turned her down for lack of a fence). I've placed show dogs and co-owned them .. paid their show fees.. etc.. they got to be one of one or two dogs rather than one of many. *I* don't sell my dogs into kennel situations... I'd take the woman you described as a home first before ever selling to another nationally ranked breeder who keeps her dogs in kennels. My dogs are pets first.

Edit: At the risk of this becoming a novel... The dog must be in decent condition or it would in no way shape or form be able to be a "show" dog. Is the dog poorly cared for and unloved? Or do *YOU* just happen to have a distaste for the woman?

As a breeder, should I only sell dogs to people within my own social strata and education level? Or can good homes come from any class?

Is the dog happy and healthy?

EDIT x 2. Sounds like she needs to be educated in several areas. I hope you encouraged her to phone her breeder for a discussion on living with intact males, pointed out some good training facilities for working on the lack of control she has over her soon to be HUGE dog and reminded her that unaltered animals are not welcome in that dog park.

I appreciate your clarification of what was upsetting you... I had some erroneous notion she was simply someone you met at the bus stop or something.

I tend to be VERY hands-on with my puppy buyers, whether they are pets or co-owned. I often tell people "if you don't like me as a person and want to talk to me about how things are going, PLEASE buy elsewhere". I even give them contact info for other reputable breeders who are not as... annoying as I am.

Edit X3: Also, despite all our interviewing, questionnaires and checking of references, breeders sometimes make mistakes. I have a friend who is dealing with having sold a puppy b*tch on a co-ownership to someone she sold a male to (with very strict breeding restrictions in the contract) 6 mos earlier. The woman said she wanted a playmate for her dog and that she would prefer a showable female. (I warned against the placement as she had not yet shown the male). At 8 mos and 3 days this puppy b*tch whelped a litter of 4. The breeder was not informed until they were 10 days old. Neither the b*tch nor the pups saw a vet until over 2 weeks of age (so.. dewclaws still intact.. and thank heavens the b*tch didnt retain a placenta) and her vet recommended they not be wormed until 6 weeks of age (!!???) This breeder is a good breeder... who made a BIG and terrible mistake selling an animal to this person. The co-owner has now retained a lawyer to fight the breeder for not allowing full registration of the pups.

Answer 6

I think I would leave that one alone. I use the premise that where there is smoke there is usually fire, and just stay away.

There are however many legitimate situations that sound a little funny until you know the actual details.
Here is a case in point, Mary Howley is one of the most knowledgeable breeders on the planet.
http://www.bird-dog-news.com/Article/MtbC.html

Answer 7

For Dog Breeders, I would recommend

http://www.buysellpuppies.com

Answer 8

i think you hit the nail on the head. oh what people will do when it comes to greed

I'm not a breeder, i don't even own dogs anymore, but i totally agree with you.