Looking for Catholic response to Psalm 69 and the subject of Mary's continued virginity.?

Question

There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus' siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, 'they hated Me without a cause.'"

He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, 'Zeal for Thy house will consume me.'"

Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.

To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mother's sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."

This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." God's will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.

Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?

Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say; otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.

The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?" Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.

My interest in this began with a study of the book of Romans, which had a huge impact on the life of Martin Luther. Martin Luther was a truly flawed man as witnessed by his terrible anti-semitism. The more I learned about him and what led him into his departure from the catholic church, the more I learned about the Roman Catholic doctrines that he disagreed with. Of course, this peaked my interest. That being said, in the question i've asked about Catholicism, never once have I EVER said that Catholics weren't Christians. I don't believe I've asked anything that someone who might be looking to become a Catholic might ask. I take the things you say in your answers and research them. In so doing, I've learned alot about catholicism, including that catholics are sincere in their beliefs. I've learned this from watching the answers you give to other questions. I've been called alot of names and accused by a priest of bearing false witness. If I bore you with my posts, then ignore me.

To dojoman: I'm not naive enough to expect that I'm going to win this debate, or as I prefer to call it, a dialogue. I have been compared to the KKK, charged by a priest in here of bearing false witness, called bigot, and of being obtuse. That's okay, except I don't understand people that come to yahoo Answers forum and then get mad when questions are asked. Anyway, I'm continuing to learn alot, and that's what I'm here for. Bottom line is, Mary's virginity is not critical to my faith. I think it has bearing in the area of apparitions communicating messages. As we approach the end times, I am closely watching the messages communicated by apparitions to see if they align with God's word. Was Mary "ever virgin"? it's disputable either way. Is Mary deserving of adoration? Now, that's a key question.

Answer 1

great research, but if you are looking for a catholic to say, "wow, this is irrefutable evidence that mary could not have been a virgin her whole life, thus the church has been pulling the wool over our eyes all this time and for their own benefit!!??"...keep on looking...it's not gonna happen.

Answer 2

Does the entirety of Catholic theology rest upon Mary's perpetual virginity, in that if this is somehow disproven authoritatively the Church will be no more? No. It rests upon Christ.

We can argue this back and forth until the end of time. Your interpretation of Psalm 69 may be correct, or it may not. If you are truly seeking a satisfactory answer to this from the Catholic perspective, may I suggest that you do not limit yourself to answers in this forum but seek out a Catholic theologian to debate it with. You are well-read and well-informed; doubtless you'll be able to hold your own in such a debate, and perhaps obtain the answers that seem to elude you here.

The fact is, you are not the first to critically explore this. Catholic scholars have done so for centuries. Personally, I am satisfied with the body of work -- interpretations of Scripture, as well as writings from the early Church -- that backs up this doctrine. I do not tailor my responses to conform to what is "necessary" to say lest the doctrine be threatened.

You've been given many lucid explanations about this from Catholics far better versed in the faith than I, and the reason they are consistent is that we do believe the doctrine is true. We also understand and accept that many other Christians do not.

Answer 3

Born Again Catholic has said it very well. I reiterate...you, as another human being, cannot know the heart of a person. I was told by a Baptist minister that when I kneel down to put presents under the Christmas tree, I am worshiping the tree. Someone who did not know the customs of Christmas, watching from the outside as we place presents under the tree...may indeed think we were honoring or worshiping the tree. The same thing happens when non-Catholics watch Catholics and make assumptions about things they do not know about. It's good that you ask, but as Born Again Catholic points out, English is a poor language compared to others because it is limited.

Answer 4

The Psalm has a prophetic forshadowing of Jesus rejection, but on the literal level rather than the typological/prophetic the psalm speaks of the family/community problems of the author(like the sufferings of Jeremiah at the hands of his family).

Also, are you saying that Jesus has sins and wrongs that are not hidden from the Father? The context seems to show that the Psalmist is professing his honesty and openness before God and admitting to unnamed wrongdoing. Dishonor has never covered Jesus ' face since He is God Incarnate.

Also "my mother" could be a poetic way of saying rejection by the nation(which is important is Christ-typology) or community of(portions of) Israel or the sons(bnai) as descendants of Sarah and Rachel since a psalm is a poem or hymn.

I really think that Mary's Virginity has nothing to do with the OT passage you quote.

Answer 5

Psalm 69 starts out with:

Save me, God, for the waters have reached my neck. I have sunk into the mire of the deep, where there is no foothold. I have gone down to the watery depths; the flood overwhelms me. I am weary with crying out; my throat is parched. My eyes have failed, looking for my God.

This is a standard lamentation psalm that describes the suffering of any innocent just person not just Jesus Christ.

Although the psalm, is cited by the New Testament especially in the passion accounts, e.g., Psalm 69:5 in John 15:25; Psalm 69:22 in Mark 15:23, 36 and in John 19:29 this does not necessarily make it a Messianic psalm where every line needs to reflect Jesus Christ.

One example: When did Jesus clothe himself in sackcloth as verse 12 claims?

Millions of innocent just people have suffered over the centuries and have felt the consolation of God in praying this psalm of David.

With love in Christ.

Answer 6

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JESUS' "BROTHERS" (adelphoi)) = COUSINS OR KINSMEN

Luke 1:36 - Elizabeth is Mary's kinswoman. Some Bibles translate kinswoman as "cousin," but this is an improper translation because in Hebrew and Aramaic, there is no word for "cousin."

Luke 22:32 - Jesus tells Peter to strengthen his "brethren." In this case, we clearly see Jesus using "brethren" to refer to the other apostles, not his biological brothers.

Acts 1:12-15 - the gathering of Jesus' "brothers" amounts to about 120. That is a lot of "brothers." Brother means kinsmen in Hebrew.

Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 - these are some of many other examples where "brethren" does not mean blood relations.

Rom. 9:3 - Paul uses "brethren" and "kinsmen" interchangeably. "Brothers" of Jesus does not prove Mary had other children.

Gen. 11:26-28 - Lot is Abraham's nephew ("anepsios") / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16 - Lot is still called Abraham's brother (adelphos") . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is "anepsios," Scripture also uses "adelphos" to describe a cousin.

Gen. 29:15 - Laban calls Jacob is "brother" even though Jacob is his nephew. Again, this proves that brother means kinsmen or cousin.

Deut. 23:7; 1 Chron. 15:5-18; Jer. 34:9; Neh. 5:7 -"brethren" means kinsmen. Hebrew and Aramaic have no word for "cousin."

2 Sam. 1:26; 1 Kings 9:13, 20:32 - here we see that "brethren" can even be one who is unrelated (no bloodline), such as a friend.

2 Kings 10:13-14 - King Ahaziah's 42 "brethren" were really his kinsmen.

1 Chron. 23:21-22 - Eleazar's daughters married their "brethren" who were really their cousins.

Neh. 4:14; 5:1,5,8,10,14 - these are more examples of "brothers" meaning "cousins" or "kinsmen."

Tobit 5:11 - Tobit asks Azarias to identify himself and his people, but still calls him "brother."

Amos 1: 9 - brotherhood can also mean an ally (where there is no bloodline).



MARY IS EVER-VIRGIN:

Exodus 13:2,12 - Jesus is sometimes referred to as the "first-born" son of Mary. But "first-born" is a common Jewish expression meaning the first child to open the womb. It has nothing to do the mother having future children.

Exodus 34:20 - under the Mosaic law, the "first-born" son had to be sanctified. "First-born" status does not require a "second" born.

Ezek. 44:2 - Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary's perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.

Mark 6:3 - Jesus was always referred to as "the" son of Mary, not "a" son of Mary. Also "brothers" could have theoretically been Joseph's children from a former marriage that was dissolved by death. However, it is most likely, perhaps most certainly, that Joseph was a virgin, just as were Jesus and Mary. As such, they embodied the true Holy Family, fully consecrated to God.

Luke 1:31,34 - the angel tells Mary that you "will" conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, "How shall this be?" Mary's response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus and finding Him in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.

John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21 - we see that younger "brothers" were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus' biological brothers.

John 19:26-27 - it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.

John 19:25 - the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as "the other Mary."

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the "brothers" of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins.

Matt. 10:3 - James is also called the son of "Alpheus." This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.

Source:
http://scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html


THE 'BROTHERS' OF OUR LORD:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp


http://home.inreach.com/~bstanley/brothers.htm


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Answer 7

Yes, scripture clearly indicates he had brothers and sisters. Although, they were born of Joseph and Mary..not born of the Holy Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead.

They then, including Mary became born-again Christians.

Answer 8

Mark 6:3 says Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him.

So obviously He had brothers and sisters...

Answer 9

In Matthew chapter 1, verse 18 tells us that Mary was found to be with child 'before they came together'. Verse 25 tells us that 'he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son'. From this one would expect that after Jesus was born, Joseph took up his husbandly duties, resulting in the brothers & sisters already referred to by other answerers.

It is true that Jesus called people His brothers even though they were not blood relations. In Mark 3, he regards those who do God's will as brothers in preference to His natural brothers.

In Galatians 1, Paul tells us that of the apostles (all of whom could be regarded all His brothers in the sense of Mark 3), he only met Peter and James, the Lord's brother. This would indicate that this James (a fairly common name) was Jesus' natural brother.

Mark 3
31 Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him.
32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.

33 Who are my mother and my brothers? he asked.

34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, Here are my mother and my brothers!

35 Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.


Matthew 1
18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce herquietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.

22 All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had said through the prophet:

23 The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel— which means, God with us.

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.

25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Galatians 1
18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days.

19 I saw none of the other apostles— only James, the Lord's brother.

20 I assure you before God that what I am writing to you is no lie.

Answer 10

Jesus had other siblings,obviously Mary could not have been a virgin after that