Question regarding Mary for Catholic Christians ...?

Question

As a Protestant, I'd like to know upon what scriptural basis the doctrine of Immaculate Conception was formed. Also, what scriptural basis is there for the Assumption of Mary and her coronation as the Queen of Heaven?

AlanaGKelley, it's part of the doctrine of the assumption of mary!

Aquila, I have respect for the answers given honestly by Catholic Christians. So far, you seem to lack ideas. But at least you admit you aren't catholic, so I can see you might not understand what's being talked about.

Again, i NEVER said RC's worship mary. However, her veneration is NOT scriptural, and I can tell you from watching Catholic TV that she forms a VERY important part of catholic ritual. I find that troubling.

Alana, if you go to www.maryqueen.org, you can go to the website of Mary Queen of Heaven Catholic Church!!!!!

Wolfblayde, please explain how Mary was preserved from original sin? Wouldn't the same have been true of her mom, and her grand mom, and so on?
Human Logic cannot take the place of Holy Scripture. Was Enoch then also preserved from original sin and taken into heaven??

Alana, you may be agnostic now, but you were obviously raised RC, right?

Aquila, I await your list of unbiblical things I'm doing.

Wplgblayde, part of the doctrine of the assumption is that mary had to be sinless in order to enter heaven, thus making the immaculate conception needed. So what's the deal with Enoch,Elijah, and the Apostle Paul?

Mary's mother would have to be sinles, and her mom, and her mom, and her mom, and so on. otherwise, the special protection you claim was afforded to mary would have protected christ,would it not? When pagans talk about Christianity having stolen from them, this is the doctrine that always come to my mind. veneration of mary is nothing more than goddess worship, added long ago to help appease pagan converts to catholicism.

Answer 1

Actually, Greg, I can relate to your feeling about the doctrines concerning Mary, as I'm a former evangelical who converted to Catholicism. The "Mary thing" was a bit of a stumbling block for me at first because of my background.

You've asked about three different aspects of the Catholic beliefs about Mary, essentially three questions in one. I will answer the first, and others will probably address it as well as the remaining two; or, you're welcome to e-mail me.

Mary's immaculate conception, Scripturally speaking, is based on the greeting she received from the angel Gabriel in Luke 1:28, which is no doubt very familiar to you: "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you". It wasn't just a nice compliment, but had significant meaning. "Full of grace", translated from the Greek "kecharitomene", implies a unique state of endowment with sanctifying grace -- Mary did not receive it coincident with the angel's annunciation, it was already a quality of her character. The Church holds that, this being the case, there couldn't have been a time when she was not "full" of sanctifying grace from the very beginning; in other words, her conception.

My question, and probably yours, was how that lines up with the fact that Mary herself speaks of "God, my Savior" just a few verses later. Catholics believe that she did, indeed, need a Savior as we all do. But she is unique among humans; where others have borne witness to the Word, she actually bore the Word Himself. The Gospel of John tells us:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." ... "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us"

Our Creator made us; He made Mary. She alone among us was redeemed by the grace of Christ (who was God) by anticipation, as she would bear the Word.

Answer 2

The Immaculate Conception is a logical construction based on the understanding that God's Incarnation could have nothing whatever to do with sin. If one believes in the doctrine of "Original Sin" (based on the fall of Man in Genesis 3 as the reason why Christ's crucifixion is an "atonement"), then there had to be, in addition to the fact that no sin-stained man or "sinful" act was involved, an exception of some kind in Mary's case. The Christ could not develop in a sinful womb, yet sin is understood to be inherited by all people. So Mary's conception had to have been miraculously sin-free.

The Assumption is more difficult, apart from some generic prophecies about "not allowing your faithful one to undergo corruption". Mary doesn't get a lot of Bible space. But surely, Jesus wouldn't forget his dear old mom, no matter how apotheosed he got. What kind of savior would he be otherwise?

The crowning? Okay, you got me. That part really IS silly. I have to start thinking about the atmospheric conditions in heaven and its ability to support the biological processes of unglorified bodies, accompanied by all those scholastical ifs, buts and howsoevers, not to mention where they got the crown from and what exactly her responsibilities are as queen, etc.

No wonder I'm agnostic. (Oh, and EWTN is only one style of being Catholic.)

Answer 3

the "Immaculate Conception" is not scriptural. At least, not any more scriptural than the Most Holy Trinity.
http://www.apparitions.org/lourdes.html
She appeared to a young girl (now known as St Bernadette) in Lourdes, France. Not knowing who it was she was seeing, she asked who she was. The apparition replied using these words: "I am the Immaculate Conception" She had just been given this title earlier by one of the Popes. Bernadette was too young to even know what these words meant, but the priest she told it to did.

Also, this link may be helpful
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

There are some apocryphal works explaining the assumption of the Holy Virgin.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0832.htm
Apocryphal books generally were not included in the Holy Bible since they are not necessary for the salvation of our souls

I do believe, however, the Coronation of the BVM is scriptural. It is somewhere in Apocalypse where a woman with 12 stars on her head...*goes to look it up*

You're trying to figure out the Rosary, aren't you?

edit: Apocalypse 12:1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

12 tribes of Israel
12 apostles
12 of me being happiness joy joy.

Answer 4

You are assuming that Catholicism is based on "Sola Scriptura," or Scripture alone. That's not the case: our doctrines are also formed on the basis of sacred tradition. Sacred tradition is an acceptable means of formulating doctrine, according to St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:15. (The discussion of sacred tradition in Protestant religion would take up more space than I have here -- sufficient to say that you, too, have your traditions which cannot be pinpointed in Scripture.)

In the case of the beliefs that you mentioned, they are largely a matter of logic. You don't put a pure white lily in a filthy, rusted tin can, so why would God send His pure and holy Son into the womb of a being tainted by original sin? It only makes sense that Mary was preserved from the effects of original sin so that her Son would be born from a pure vessel.

The Assumption of Mary is based on traditional accounts of her death and assumption into Heaven. Logic once again plays an important part, here: we know where many of the saints are buried, so if Mary's body was still on earth, it would be revered as one of the most holy objects in Christendom. No one has ever produced her body or mentioned where she is buried, so the Assumption makes a great deal of sense.

And Jesus is referred to as the King of kings and the Lord of lords. The mother of a king is a queen in her own right, so once again, it only makes sense that Mary received the honor due to her after her humble and loving life on earth.

Edit:

Imacatholic2's explanation is more detailed than I can give you. Needless to say, Enoch was not the mother of the Messiah, so he didn't need to be kept free from original sin. As to how God preserved Mary, that's beyond this human being's ability to understand. I also don't understand how He knew how to form the world and keep it in balance to support life. But just because I don't know how He did it, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

And there's nothing wrong with using our God-given abilities to reason when it comes to spiritual matters. He didn't give us the power to think logically for us to say, "Oh, no thanks, God -- I think I'll pass on that reasoning stuff."

Answer 5

Catholics do not worship Mary. That is a simple misconception that with a little reading can be cleared up rather quickly.

Edit: The birth of Mary was also miraculous. She was conceived without sin as a special grace because God had selected her to become the mother of His Son. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, though generally believed throughout the Church for many centuries, was formally declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854.
She is an important part of Catholicism because she gave birth to Christ. Catholics ask Mary to pray to Jesus for them. She is interceding, kind of in the way a pastor might pray for you.

Does it really matter in the end? Either you believe it or you don't. This is why you are protestant. I am agnostic so it doesn't make a difference to me. Why do you have to be right? Do you think if your god does exist he would deny someone entrance into heaven because they thought highly of his mother? I very much doubt it.

Edit 2: That website is not a representation of the traditional catholic church. Just because someone was idiotic enough to name that church that doesn't mean it is believed.

Answer 6

+ Imaculate Conception +

Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

When the angel Gabriel called Mary, "Full of grace," Mary was already full of grace.

When the angel Gabriel said, "The Lord is with you," the Lord was already with her.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was in a state of grace before she says "yes" to the angel's question and before the Holy Spirit came upon her for a different purpose.

When did Mary's state of grace begin?

Catholics believe this state of grace was with Mary since her Immaculate Conception. This means that Mary was conceived in the normal way (not like Jesus) but that she did not inherit original sin.

God prepared her for her later role as the mother of Jesus.

Catholics celebrate this miracle on December 8 as the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

http://www.nccbuscc.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt2art3p2.htm#490

+ The Assumption +

Catholics believe in the assumption of the body of the Blessed Virgin Mary into heaven after her death.

John 19:26-27 states:

When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple (John) took her into his home.

The minutes of the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus in 431 C.E. indicate that four or six years after the death and resurrection of Jesus, John and the Virgin Mary came together to Ephesus, and for a short time stayed in the building, a section of which is now under Church of the Virgin Mary today.

Later John moved the Virgin Mary to a house he had prepared for her on Bulbul Dagi (Bulbul Hill). She lived there until the end of her earthly life.

St. John of Damascus (P. G., I, 96) later wrote:

St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.

http://www.turktour.com/virgin_mary.html
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm

+ Mother of God, Queen of Heaven +

Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, who is God the Son, and therefore can be addressed as the Mother of God.

This is similar to a commoner who marries a king and becomes the mother of the next king. She is entitled to the title Queen and Mother of the King even though she is not royalty.

Nobody two hundred, five hundred or a thousand years ago would have been confused about these terms.

But this is hard for people to understand in these times where royalty and kings and queens are few and far between.

+ With love in Christ.

Answer 7

Just because certain matters are not included in the plain text of scripture doesn't mean they didn't or couldn't have happened.

This applies particularly to the period from around 70 AD and later, after most scripture had already been written.

Jesus' flesh came from Mary.

If Mary's flesh had been tainted by sin, then so would Jesus'.

That would give Satan power over Jesus, immediately disqualifying Jesus as Messiah.

The only answer to this was Mary being conceived without sin, just as Adam and Eve most certainly were created that way.

Mary's immaculate conception was a necessary privilege in order to bring the sinless Christ into the world through her.

Mary was "pre-saved" by God, and not by anything she did or anything she merited, so there really is no theological problem with it.

In fact, when Gabriel addressed Mary as "highly favored" and "full of grace" he was cerifying her sinless nature, as no one since Eve had been the recipient of God's sanctifying grace, or his unmerited favor.

When Mary questioned Gabriel as to how she would give birth since she knew not man, it was grace that led Gabriel to explain how it would come about.

By comparison, when Zachariah ... John the baptist's father ... asked a similar question, he was struck dumb ... simply because he ... like everyone else in the world ... except Mary ... possessed no sanctifying grace.

so, God is sovereign ... and there simply was NO other way for Christ to be born into this world as a sinless man.

The assumption is a logical extension of Mary's privilege.

Not stained by sin, and providing the sinless flesh for Christ, God treated her flesh much the same as Jesus' flesh ... preserving it from corruption, resurrecting her and assuming her ... body and soul into heaven ... just as it was promised in the psalms.

The alternative is unthinkable.

If you were God, would you allow Satan to have his way with your own mother, even for a moment?

And regarding Mary's queenship ... Jesus is not only the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, but he is also the eternal king of the royal house of David.

According to the traditions of that royal house, the mother of the king is the queen, and the official role of the queen is to intercede for the people with her son.

This practice was established during the reign of Solomon, and it is chronicled in 1st Kings 2:19.

Revelation 11 & 12 speak of Mary's Assumption (the Ark seen in the heavenly temple) and her coronation (the woman clothed with the sun, the crown of twelve stars, etc.)

St. John, who received the book of revelation from Christ, is the original source of this information, which has always been treasured by the authentic church.

Protestants who showed showed up 1500 years late to the "party" really have no right to set up arbitrary rules, and then try to get everyone else to play by them.

And even if they did, the power and authority Jesus gave his true church "trumps" anything any man can come up with.

This is essentially what the Catholic church officially teaches on this subject:

40. Hence the revered Mother of God, from all eternity joined in a hidden way with Jesus Christ in one and the same decree of predestination,[47] immaculate in her conception, a most perfect virgin in her divine motherhood, the noble associate of the divine Redeemer who has won a complete triumph over sin and its consequences, finally obtained, as the supreme culmination of her privileges, that she should be preserved free from the corruption of the tomb and that, like her own Son, having overcome death, she might be taken up body and soul to the glory of heaven where, as Queen, she sits in splendor at the right hand of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages.[48]

It's the truth.

Answer 8

The verse is found right between the verse which says the 66 books of the Protestant bible is the word of god, and the verse about sola-scriptura.

Answer 9

Greg, they rely on tradition, not the Christian Bible. That way they can make things up as needed and change them when necessary.

The popes actually say that the Bible says only what THEY say it means, and that God gave them the authority to change it whenever they wish.