Do atheists take for granted...?

Question

...what is 'good' or what is 'evil?'

What I mean to ask is, where did these two ideas come from? It appears as though these concepts come from the various world religions. And I mean that they originated from these.

Society and parents as the source of these, passing these concepts down from generation to generation, doesn't tell anyone what the origin of 'good' and 'evil' are.

Any thoughts?

Phoenix - umm, thanks for the link to Wikipedia. I've been there a couple times. Any thoughts that are actually your own?

deazone - you may be correct - assuming you're big on evidence, do you have any to support your view?

Gorgeous, thanks for actually answering the question. I'd put the drink down (unless coffee) if you're claiming common sense is the origin. Check out the link to Wikipedia for some basic thoughts on 'common sense' - check out Einstein - "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." I tend to agree - common sense is passed down, but certainly not the origin of 'good' and 'evil'

YY4me - to avoid your charge of theft, I intentionally noted 'world religions' and not Christianity. So now that I know your views on one of these world religions, any thoughts on the question posed?

Roman, uhh, thanks?

The Son of Man - and that's why I said 'appears', because there is no evidence to support a none religious origin.

Simon T - yes, I do actually think about it. Bundling artifacts and labeling them memes doesn't address where they came from. So 'good' and 'evil' are relative to you - that's fine. But where did they come from?

cmw, Jack B and Darth - great points, in my view. cmw expresses my view pretty well, and Jack B pointed out a flaw in my statement/question. I should have said these look to have come from people who believe in a Supreme Being.

cmw addresses Darth's point, with empathy a base to common sense, but still needing a cultural framework. Isn't empathy just a byproduct of a moral base, with 'good' and 'evil' already baked in?

And fishy dude, good comment. Although I don't know that sociology does anything more than show a group of people living with 'good' and 'evil' already baked in. Maybe societies are formed as a way for mankind to show loving kindness, but I tend to buy into Hobbes, with fear a main driver.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.


And thanks to The Reverend Soliel and Geezah for their thoughtful comments as well.

Answer 1

Originated with religion........?

Absolutely not; the valuations of character are an intrinsic quality, present in every human being from birth; while there are those individuals who have a flawed register for their values, most people hold to a common value that they don't treat others in a fashion that they themselves do not wish to be treated. This is not taught, it is instinct.

Your assumption is a dangerous one. From that starting point, "good and evil originated with religion", comes the association of certain religions as "good" and certain ones as "evil". Thus, the scene is set for religious strife, and unfortunately the world today is filled with far too much of that.

Good and evil are actions that anyone has the choice to undertake or refrain from. It is unfortunate that there are negative actions undertaken all too readily in the name of religion.

Answer 2

The concept of good and evil and what is which is dealt with by ethics.

Ethics are memes and change and evolve with societies. Societies with more useful memes prosper, those with less useful memes wither. These were around before the first person ever thought up the concepts of a god and religion.

Not killing people you dislike. Is a very successful meme. It is almost universal and it is fairly obvious why.

Slavery is a meme that used to be successful. It quickly evolved into a 'Slavery from other tribes is OK' to a "Slavery from people who are different" form as tribes combined into nations. But today it has all but disappeared.

So is slavery good? Or evil? If the question was asked 150 years ago in the US what would the answer have been? 150 years ago in the UK what would the answer have been?


No I do not take for granted what is 'good' or what is 'evil'. I actually think about it.

Do you seriously think about it? Or just take what your holy book says? (Or what your priest claims your holy book says?)

Answer 3

Good and evil, right and wrong are both absolutes, or the two extreme ends of a scale of survival. There are no absolutes in life.
Each of us has a dynamic urge towards survival as life through various spheres of life.
Survival as self, through sex and family, as a group or groups, races and as Mankind. Also all life forms, the material universe, the spiritual universe and God or the Inifinte.
Those acts which help or enhance the survival of the greater number of these spheres would be somewhere on the plus side of this scale, ie good, depending on the degree.
Those acts which harm the greater number of these spheres would be bad of evil, somewhere on the minus side again depending on the degree of harm.

Religions through the ages have developed basic dogma and rules based on this concept of optimum survival in an attempt to help mankind.
They have been used by man to control and enforce and have been applied incorrectly but the original intent and idea was a guide to promote optimum survival for Mankind.

Secular laws also have this as a basis altho they also become an effort to control and force or enforce and are not always formed with all factors or spheres in the equation for optimum survival.

This gives a basis for what is ethical and what is not or what is good and what is bad or evil.which
This factor applies to all of us no matter what we believe or don't believe.
But religions , outside of any legal system are the only other activities or groups among man that actively promote and help this concept of optimum survival across
ALL the spheres of life I mentioned above.

That's my 2 cents worth.

Answer 4

"Good" and "evil" are largely subjective terms. They change from culture to culture and generation to generation. The Spartans used to think that the proper way to deal with sick or deformed infants was to leave them out on a mountain top to die in the cold. 100 years ago you couldn't mention sex at the dinner table no matter how clinically you put it, but you could have a minstrel show, and now it's just the opposite. Or if you want an even more modern example: the Muslims who flew the planes on 9/11 sincerely believed that they were doing something holy.

If there seems to be any morals that seem "universal", I'd say these come from biology. We're animals with a survival drive, so getting what we want and staying out of harm's way is going to be our individual priority. But we're social organisms too, so after that comes our drive to protect our family and other close ones (in fact, this also affects the first priority, because after all we find the suffering of our loved ones undesirable, so that fuels the second one too). Likewise, we want to keep our surroundings habitable and safe. So when you keep all of this in mind, it's not too surprising that when people have gotten together and drew up some kind of moral code to keep order, things like "Don't kill your neighbors", "Have loyalty to our tribe" and "Don't take other people's stuff" would make it to some of these lists of religious dogma. So we don't get our morals directly from religous dogma; it just all comes from the same biology.

Answer 5

"Society and parents as the source of these, passing these concepts down from generation to generation, doesn't tell anyone what the origin of 'good' and 'evil' are."

Where did these two ideas come from?

Just a computer programmer's view:

I think empathy plays a big part on defining what good and evil are. Seems very simple to me. "Having an eye poked out probably wouldn't feel good to me. Somebody having their eye poked out probably wouldn't feel good to him, either. Poking eyes out must be bad or 'evil'."

I don't know why you think religion must be involved. Am I missing something here? Do you mean that if religion had never existed, there would be no concept of "good or evil". No empathy, sympathy, nothing?

Answer 6

Why Christians Must Steal From Secular Morality:
http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/submissions/steal_morality.htm
Christians must steal their moral rules from secular morality. They have no choice, as the Bible does not offer a moral system, it only offers a series of contradictory commands and a supposed threat of punishment in the "afterlife" for not following them - a punishment that is given equally to all violators - whatever the sin.

The Bible does nothing and can do nothing towards inculcating moral behavior on its own. Christians must steal from secular moral systems, and then merely graft their 'God threats' on top of this moral system. This is necessary. And the reason for this is simple: there is no morality in the Bible and there can be no morality in the Bible, because the Bible holds that 1) ALL 'sins' are equivalent (destroying any moral sense) AND 2) all moral behavior is immaterial, because works cannot save a person, AND finally all people are damned from birth.

In reality, Christians realize that some actions are more moral than others. They realize that moral actions exist in a hierarchy, and that rape is far worse than stealing a pencil. Yet the Bible holds that all 'sins' are equal, as all deserve the same punishment.

Christians also realize that humans can be moral agents... they expect moral behavior from others, and they view their own children as something to value. Yet the Bible holds that man is worthless, that he cannot be a moral agent, and that his sole salvation comes from grace. However, since Christians realize, implicitly, that all of these these points are obviously, prima facie false, they must steal from secular systems, that hold that 1) man obviously has a value 2) all 'sins' are obviously not equivalent and 3) a person cannot be held to be doing anything 'immoral' without intent.

Answer 7

Why do you think adding 'cool' words to things will make them more powerful, like some kind of voodoo or spell casting. There is life and there is death. We all deal with both and no magical being grants either. Reality for me is not dull or passionless. I don't know what you're doing wrong that you have to spice it up with make-believe and spirituality in order for it to be exciting for you. Grow up.

Answer 8

The hard wiring I've read about here doesn't exactly explain cultures of cannibalism, does it? Observing what works (good) and what doesn't (bad) has never stopped cultures like the Aztecs, who ripped hearts out in the temple.

I think lots of people, including atheists, take the existence of their conscience for granted.

God instills his commandments in us. Writes on our hearts is another way to say it. H'e done this since creation.

He restrains sin, but He can restrain it to a lesser or greater degree. At the moment, it seems like he's letting us take the lead a bit more and the results are scary.

Answer 9

Good and evil are part of human nature. They would exist without religion, every animal on this planet has a nature and is capable of exhibiting good and evil traits.

We have determined than animals operate in a primal way but human do as well. The complexities of our minds and our society has lead man to find ways to explain our nature.

Ancient man found ways to justify our nature and temper the evil part. That is done through religion ....gods, demons, angels etc. Religions attempt to remove the nature from humans, they claim we are the way we are because of a divine design, not because of the nature inherent in us all.

Answer 10

Concepts of good and evil and morality predate religion, and need no religion to exist. There is nothing to support your statement that the concepts came from any religion. Do you think without religion people would find it acceptable to kill or steal? Of course not. These concepts are a byproduct of human society, not of religion. Why does saying they came fro society not explain the origin, but saying they came fro religion does?