Is the Church that Jesus founded visible?

Question

Is the Church Christ founded either visible or not? Or is it both visible and not?

angeltress said:
Jesus told Pilate that His Kingdom is "not of this world"...
Therefore, do not look for it in this world.

I reply:
"not of this world" does not necessarily imply "not IN this world". Your assumption is just that an assumption based on a statement that doesn't even imply or support your statement

rathrhadit said:
anyone with adequate familiarity with Greek exegesis will tell you that THAT rock (that Jesus was building on) was not Peter, but the truth that Peter spoke {"you are a rock (petros, small stone), but on this rock (petra, boulder) I will build my church"}.

I reply:
Christ did not speak to the disciples in Greek. He spoke Aramaic, the common language of Palestine at that time. In that language the word for rock is kepha, which is what Jesus called him in everyday speech (note that in John 1:42 he was told, "You will be called Cephas"). What Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 was: "You are Kepha, and upon this kepha I will build my Church."

When Matthew’s Gospel was translated from the original Aramaic to Greek, there arose a problem which did not confront the evangelist when he first composed his account of Christ’s life. In Aramaic the word kepha has the same ending whether it refers to a rock or is used as a man’s name. [See next details]

So he put a masculine ending on it, and hence Peter became Petros.

Furthermore, the premise of the argument against Peter being the rock is simply false. In first century Greek the words petros and petra were synonyms. They had previously possessed the meanings of "small stone" and "large rock" in some early Greek poetry, but by the first century this distinction was gone, as Protestant Bible scholars admit (see D. A. Carson’s remarks on this passage in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids: Zondervan Books]).

Some of the effect of Christ’s play on words was lost when his statement was translated from the Aramaic into Greek, but that was the best that could be done in Greek. In English, like Aramaic, there is no problem with endings; so an English rendition could read: "You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church."

[See next details]

Consider another point: If the rock really did refer to Christ (as some claim, based on 1 Cor. 10:4, "and the Rock was Christ" though the rock there was a literal, physical rock), why did Matthew leave the passage as it was? In the original Aramaic, and in the English which is a closer parallel to it than is the Greek, the passage is clear enough. Matthew must have realized that his readers would conclude the obvious from "Rock . . . rock."

If he meant Christ to be understood as the rock, why didn’t he say so? Why did he take a chance and leave it up to Paul to write a clarifying text? This presumes, of course, that 1 Corinthians was written after Matthew’s Gospel; if it came first, it could not have been written to clarify it.

The reason, of course, is that Matthew knew full well that what the sentence seemed to say was just what it really was saying. It was Simon, weak as he was, who was chosen to become the rock and thus the first link in the chain of the papacy.

Answer 1

Yes. Jesus founded a human organization to carry on his work after his ascension into heaven. He appointed a visible person, in fact, quite a colorful character to lead the Church--the apostle Peter. The organization had a hierarchy, with the apostles and James as bishops during the early years of the Church. Local assemblies and missionaries like Paul reported to the bishops. The bishops met together to make decisions about matters like diet and circumcision that had led to conflicts in the local assemblies, hammering out policies by means of open discussion and prayer (for example, see Acts 15).

The modern Catholic and Orthodox churches have an unbroken historical continuity with the original Church. They have a 2000 year history of adherence to the same doctrines on faith and morality. They follow the same pattern of meetings among the leadership to reach consensus on new issues that arise. Priests and other ministers are ordained by the previously ordained bishops, going all the way back to the apostles. All this is visible.

One thing that is not visible is Christ's mystical body, which incorporates all who have faith in him, including people living on earth and saints alive with him in heaven. The challenge to believers with some participation in the mystical body is to unite with the visible Church to learn the full gospel teachings, to shoulder the effective work of the Church, and to receive the sacraments Christ instituted to nourish our life in him.

Answer 2

The Church is Visible and One

Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

Answer 3

The invisible church is what Jesus built. The visible one/s try to emulate it (though often fail miserably, sorry to say).

And yes, Jesus did say that He would build His church on "this rock", but anyone with adequate familiarity with Greek exegesis will tell you that THAT rock (that Jesus was building on) was not Peter, but the truth that Peter spoke {"you are a rock (petros, small stone), but on this rock (petra, boulder) I will build my church"}. So, the church can outlive (and has outlived) Peter's lifetime.

One thing to remember, He did say "MY church". Jesus never surrendered leadership of HIS church to any human being or any human institution. The problem is sooo many humans assume (maybe presume is a better word, one that leads to presumption) that He did. He is always referred to as the "Head" of the church. He is alive and present even now and does not have to delegate His leadership responsibility to any (fallible) human, no matter how charismatic or saintly they may be.

The true church is not within the confines of any single denomination (though many try to say that it is, and that it's confined to them). Once this statement is made (limiting the population of true believers to just one human-defined gathering) it is safe to say THAT statement is not true.

Look for (and find) the true church where Jesus planted it - out among common people, along the highways and byways, etc.

The bottom line in this argument (that has actually been going on for centuries and will probably not end here and now) is that we all have a choice, and God will weigh (use the word 'judge' if you'd rather) us by our choices. For now we can only be satisfied by "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" and end it there. Even Paul says to avoid controversies for they ultimately lead no one no where.

Answer 4

Robin,
The Church was founded in Jesus' Name by HIS Apostles. It began in Acts 2:38 when Peter spoke at Pentecost and thousands were baptized. This is the same today. Those who hear the WORD, believe, repent (turn) of their sins, confess Christ as Lord and Savior, are Baptized as were those in the BIBLE, and continue in faith until death are all added to the LORD'S CHURCH. That Church is the one who follows the precepts of the New Testament and do not sway from our FATHER'S Writings. Have a wonderful day and a glorious weekend.
Thanks,
Eds


.

Answer 5

It is both. The Church is the body of Christ. Christ's body is made up of all believers. It is spiritual. It is not four walls. There are many that call their denomination or church the true church. They are all blasphemers and cultic.

Answer 6

The Catholic Church Is visible proved by its being attacked every day.

Christ was falsely accused. Just as He was accused of doing the work of the Devil, He predicted that His Church would also be accused in the same way. Mat. 10: 25 "If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more those of his household !" We know that Christ’s prophecy is true, so our search for His Church that He established can be safely restricted to considering only those Churches that are accused of doing the Devil’s work.
Mark 14:55-59 "Many gave false witness against him, but their testimony did not agree…"
John 15:18-20 "If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first.
… If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you."
Matthew 12:24-26 "But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, ‘This man drives out demons only by the power of Beelzebul, the prince of demons.’ But he knew what they were thinking and said to them, ‘Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and no town or house divided against itself will stand. And if Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand?’

Answer 7

Like a stained glass window from close up, you can see bits and pieces and colors. But you need to step very afar away to grasp the whole community.

Answer 8

Luther and Calvin denied the Apostolic succession of the Popes and so as to do this in addition they had to disclaim the region of St.Peter too,the shame of that is that Jesus appoints Peter as His earthly representative and the reformers no longer basically usurp the authority of St.Peter yet(and that is amazingly heretical) that of Jesus Himself! The innovations boggles at such blatant delight and disobedience. the undeniable fact that the Catholic church has had an authoritative and visual head(Pope) suceeding from St.Peter has meant that the Catholic church have continually had an unbroken line of magisterial coaching that has saved Catholicism jointly for 2,000yrs, whilst Protestantism with over 30,000 sects have on no account had this and can't even agree on doctrines. God bless.

Answer 9

Jesus told Pilate that His Kingdom is "not of this world"...
Therefore, do not look for it in this world.
No, the Church that Jesus founded is not visible. His disciples are scattered through the denominations.
But you will know when you have met one.
His love is unmistakable...

Answer 10

Visible.

We can see it through the Apostolic Succession from the current Bishops all the way back to the Apostles and Jesus Himself, when He (really, physically and visibly) breathed on them and said "Receive ye the Holy Ghost"