Atheists...why would we stay quiet?

Question

I have heard many people suggest that atheists should just leave believers alone and not challenge their views, usually stating that they're harmless.
My personal feeling is that I will be proud if I manage to change just one person from a believer to an atheist. I think it's our duty as keepers of the rational intellectual advancement of humanity that we spread the word of reason.
I think we need to be proactive: we need atheists to become teachers, to make sure kids don't get brainwashed. We need atheist leaders, to make sure society's key decisions are based on reason rather than bias. etc
Religion may not be evil in and of itself, but it requires people to give up the most precious thing that makes humans different (but not that different) from animals. Our ability for logical deduction and reason. By doing nothing, we allow this to be replaced with fantasy, which distracts us from the reality that we need to build for ourselves as a species.

What are your views?

To Swish, General custer and people with similar views, I refer you to a book that you would do well to spend rather more time reading than the bible. It's called a dictionary: (from Oxford English ed)
Logic: noun 1 reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity. 2 the ability to reason correctly.

What strict principles of validity relate to a belief in god exactly?

You can't stick your fingers in your ears and shout "I can't hear you" every time someone asks you to explain why you believe in something you've never seen.
The fact that you cannot understand the complexities and beauty of a universe without god is not my problem buddy. It's yours. And why would I worry that I have made a wrong decision.

It's people like you that give thoughtful believers such as SJR a bad name.

Anyway, my question was intended more for atheists. I understand the "live and let live" approach, but I just think that to beat an enemy like religion you need a plan!!

Alleninthehills - You are just an unpleasant person. Luckily I, and most people reading this will know that depite my atheism I am morally superior to you, as I would not wish death on anyone...even the idiots like you who would fly planes into buildings because they are too stupid to realise just how wrong their views are, or what an unpleasant example of "humanity" they are.

Flipper: So the various bad US decisions made on the war on terror weren't biased by religion you think? A big part of why the problem has got worse rather than better is because Bush's religious rhetoric paints terrorists as inherently evil. Whilst muslims often paint the US as the evil one. Both are religiously biased views, and both are wrong. An atheist, whilst by no means perfect, would at least not have this particualar bias to mentally handicap them.
I believe some are ignorant because despite the fact that religion (and atheism of course) is manifestly a "leap of faith", you seem to de-value the combination of logic and faith used by atheists. I use, amongst others, Occam's razor as my tool of reason to back up my belief that god is fictional. Most religious folk rely on 3rd person stories...the bible....the man they met once who told them of some miracle (that strangely was never reported in the media!) etc. If you could give me proof then of course I'd believe..

Answer 1

I agree. The religious answer to everything is to either ban it, destroy it, desecrate it, attempt to discredit it, lie about it, or legislate against it if it's not understood by believers.

Atheism predates religion. It will also outlast it.

Answer 2

There are a few flaws with your reasoning here, which makes your claim of being the "keepers of the rational intellectual advancement of humanity" quite suspect.

First, you assume or imply that being a religious person automatically injects the religious beliefs into every action and decision of that person. Although some of the most "devout" religious persons undoubtedly do that, the majority of us don't. You're statement, "I think we need to be proactive: we need atheists to become teachers, to make sure kids don't get brainwashed. We need atheist leaders, to make sure society's key decisions are based on reason rather than bias. etc" is so way off base it's almost funny. How does the religious background of a math teacher, or an English teacher, have anything to do with teaching math and English?? 2 + 2 = 4 if you're a Christian, Buddhist, Jew, Islamist, Agnostic or Atheist. And wouldn't the children run the risk of being "brainwashed" by an atheist teacher, if the agenda of that teacher is to slam religion?? And atheist leaders making decisions based on merit?? That IS funny! They may not use any religion to make decisions, but there are always other political/financial/special interests involved. When was that last time a political decision was EVER made based solely on merit??

It's a double-edged sword. You paint all religious persons with the same brush of using their religion to influence their actions and decisions, but atheists can be the same way.

"Religion may not be evil in and of itself, but it requires people to give up the most precious thing that makes humans different (but not that different) from animals. Our ability for logical deduction and reason." This, again, is an oversimplification, and load of crap. Just because I am a religious person does NOT mean I cannot think logically, or use reason to solve a dilemma. Did your atheism cause you to accuse religious persons of being ignorant, or are you just ignorant?

If you are so taken with the idea of building a reality for our species, here's something you need to consider: we ALL need to do that together. Now, in my experience, many religions and religious people are inclusive, and accepting of people regardless of their religious persuasion, or non-persuasion. Atheists however will argue and argue until you agree with their position, and bridge no tolerance of religious belief. Your little diatribe is a good example. Religion = bad, atheism = good. No middle ground.

It's just not logical!

One more thing...from George Carlin:
"I would rather live as if there IS a God, only to find out there isn't, than live as if there isn't, only to find out there is."

Answer 3

The first thing you should do if you really want to be taken seriously is stop calling yourself Atheist. Atheism will be as wrong as theist religions as long as there is no way to define what god is.

Atheism isn't just about not believing in god or gods and it isn't just about rejecting all the various religions' rather obviously fallacious assertions and dictates about divinity, morality, spirituality and the supernatural.

Atheism goes further, and is liable to exactly the same criticism as theism, by making a decision that god definitely doesn't exist in any way, shape or form. That decision is every bit as much a leap of FAITH as the initial presumptions of theism which draws the opposite conclusion from the same evidence. Neither conclusion is justifiable. It is only reasonable to conclude that it doesn't matter to you whether or not a god, or several gods exist or not.

If you go to a forest and find no evidence of a shrew, there, that doesn't mean there's no such thing as a shrew. Neither does it mean there is such a thing and it's a magical giant with antlers, the ability to become invisible, pish love and cure the common cold with a twitch of its vestigial dorsal fin. All it really means is you didn't know what you were looking for and wouldn't recognise shrew crap if you stood knee deep in it.

Some people DO know what shrews really are, what evidence would indicate their presence and appreciate the role they play in the ecosystem of a forest as predators and as prey, but no-one has ever known what god is, or might be, or what might constitute evidence of its existence, or what role it plays, or might play, in the grand universal scheme.

There is no consensus on what god definitively is and until there is, atheism is, fundamentally, as illegitimate as theism.

Answer 4

Well one very good reason to stay quiet is that a lot of the swivel eyed religious loonies out there have guns and don't seem to need much of an excuse to use them (and no, I'm not referring to you moderate 'intellectual' believers). Also do you seriously think there's any chance of undoing the brainwashing that leads to most of these people adopting their views in the first place? (again to the moderates - I did use the word 'most') I had several conversations with the 'others' when I was much younger - attempting to expose their delusion is about as futile as trying to have a conversation with a lawnmower. The sixth or seventh time I got the response 'because it says so in the bible' to my question 'provide any tangible evidence of the existence of god' (because I can give you a lot of very compelling arguments as to why he's a construct of the human mind, and the burden of proof surely has to be with you...) accompanied by a vacant puppy like gaze from the believer (they have that - and trying to make you feel like the deluded one - down to a fine art), I very quickly realised I was on to a loser. Haven't been down the same conversational path in many years, and yes I have a lot of christian and muslim friends. My advice - let them get on with it and keep yourself to yourself - the others can get really funny about having their beliefs questioned and it will only end in tears - there will always be rational people who know the score.

Answer 5

I think you should not be assuming anything when it comes to religion and G-d. I am more than capable of using logic and reasoning skills. Right now, yours seems to be lacking; since we are both smart enough to know that being a believer does not impede our education level.

IF it did that means anyone who becomes a Christian would lose all their previously learned education and those who become a Christian early in their lives; would be segregated from Atheists in school.

I personally think it is very sad that you think it is your duty to make people lose their faith. How can you be so uncaring and callous about someone else's soul? So, how can you with absolute certainty say that G-d (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is not real? There is no way for anyone to possess all knowledge of all things. You have your ideas and opinions, I have a testimony of witnesses written over the period of 1500 years.

As a matter of fact, several books and fragments of books were found among over 800 Manuscripts known as the Dead Sea Scrolls. These manuscripts have been carbon dated from the third century BCE to 68 CE. Let me put this into perspective for you, this is the same time of Epicurus, Greek philosopher and Teacher. I point this out because three of the Books of the Bible, have constellations mentioned by name - {Orion, and others}.

However, we are instructed by the words of G-d (in the Bible) to NOT worship the stars (planets, other bodies in the skies) or idols (statues or any man-made object). This is totally opposite of Greek and Roman myths - they DID and were encouraged to worship stars (planets, constellations, and idols).

Edit:
Logic and reasoning also dictates that science MUST look at all angles of an equation -- not just the most popular according to personal opinions.

Answer 6

Athiests are fools trying to prove a point. Just as a thiest blindly believes, an athiest blindly disbelieves. If you had any rational intellectual advancement you would have some humility and call yourself an agnostic - 'one who does not know'

Secondly, if you were capable of reason you would realise that there are millions and millions of people, many of them reasonably intelligent who have a blind belief in god. I may not agree with them, but there is phenomena which i dont know. If you want to take out time , sit with these believers with an open mind and see if you can find some clue.

Thirdly, if you wer capable of logical deduction you would realise that the phenomena of Ghosts, past life regression, reincarnation, esp etc have been documented and scientefically proven. All this falls in the category beyond the realm. Then what is it that makes you blindly against God ?

Leave the poor chap be. You have nothing better to do than to get into useless discussions ? Go have some alcohol and hump a woman.

Answer 7

I will always share my opinion and views.. I have never been one to sit still..

When I was a little girl my grandfather used to read to me from a book of Dylan Thomas' words (His favorite poet with Edgar Alan Poe a close second) . I will always remember him reading Rage Against The Dying of The Light .. (My grandfather had a deep baritone voice that rumbled in his chest as he spoke)

http://www.bigeye.com/donotgo.htm

He told me it was a message for me "Don't sit around and let people walk all over you, stand up and scream if that's what it takes to be heard." He then told me "An old person only has regrets when they look back and realize what they could have said or done... So say it and do it , ask for forgiveness along the way if you hurt someones feelings..."

Whether or not someone shares the same opinions and views is irrelevant.. I will continue to scream and be heard if that's what it takes..

Answer 8

I don't think that religion is wrong, but it is wrong for followers of religion to try to squash what is just another take on life. If religious people do not think they should have their views challenged, this suggests they are afraid of not being able to come up with responses that are satisfactory - not to us, but to them. In turn, this surely means that their beliefs are not completely secure to start with.
I don't think I have a duty to bring anyone round to my way of thinking, but I don't see any reason why I shouldn't put my opinion out there just because some people don't want their cozy little world disrupted by a different way of thinking.

Answer 9

I don't think Atheists should stay quiet, and I'm a Christian! Some of these Christian people answering here disgust me! How does calling an Atheist "stupid" or "psycho" for not believing in what you believe DO ANY GOOD??? Tell me, you so called "Christians," how does making someone who doesn't believe in what you believe feel like an idiot do any good??
I also think that being a Christian does not require the sacrifice of "logical deduction and reason." Though, some Christians, and Atheists, give up that quality because of their own ignorance and strong opinions. Has NO ONE here ever met an educated, down-to-earth Christian?? That's awful!

Answer 10

Because religion is based on denial, thats what faith is. Denial. To believe in a fairytale to begin with shows there IQ. So for the most, I find it rather pointless to convince a thick-headed person who believes that blowing themselves up will make them close to god and be given 77 or so virgins. How crazy do you have to be to believe that> Although in the muslims crappy defense, where they are now, it is better for them to off them selves and gamble.

Answer 11

You are quite right. We shouldn't be quiet, and the reason is in the answers above....

Look at this....

"Trust me, there is no absence of logic in Christianity. Does it all make perfect sense? No, but if it did, then it wouldn't be worth much would it?"

So, there is no absence of logic, but then he admits that it doesn't all make perfect sense. Obviously not enough logic to make any sense at all there.

But he goes on...

"I am very familiar with the dictionary. I know what logic is. I also know that you are starting in the wrong place. You are looking for a logical argument where one doesn't need to be made."

Yes, he does know what logic is, and gave an example of it in the preceding paragraph. I'll repeat it..."Trust me, there is no absence of logic in Christianity." Yet now he says a logical argument does not need to be made.

After "Eight years of academic theological study and reflection." Swish needs your help, and I think General Custer went to the same backwoods college.