If "Jesus" or Paul walked into a church today, would they say "AWESOME!" or "WHAT is this?"

Question

The Church as we know it today, was started by Gentiles who threw off righteousness to maintain an identity as Hellenists and pagans. In the days of Paul, the followers of Mashiyach met in synagogues, celebrated the Shabbat and learned the Way of the Torah Mashiyach. It 190 C.E. Marcion built the first "church" and he birthed the theologies of the "Old and New Testament", Dispensationalism and Replacement Theology became a Christian value as it remains to this day.

Today the Christian church at large has adopted the pagan festivals Christmas, Easter and Sunday which where introduced into Christianity many years after Paul, yet Paul is credited for bringing this paganism into "the church"? NO, the fact of the matter is that the Gentile "Church Fathers", like Tertullian and Marcion are responsible for the Hellenism, not Paul.

He is not the "founder" of your falling on the floor Pagan worship "Church"

Worship Pagan Rome, its true founder.

Truth be told, they would not even recognize one thing as a form of worship.

But its all about your heart right? If your heart is so right, it should produce good works of THE BIBLE, not what you Pagans have been trained to do.

CJ, Galatians id the most misinterpreted book of them all!

He was teaching to people living so legalist they wont rescue a drowning person on Shabbat. Is America so Holy that we need to be free from all our law? No, we are unrighteous pigs. We need to stop with Galatians and read some truth.

Answer 1

First off, CJ misses the whole point of Galatians. The whole book is summarized here:

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are clear, which are these: evil desire, unclean things, wrong use of the senses, 20 Worship of images, use of strange powers, hates, fighting, desire for what another has, angry feelings, attempts to get the better of others, divisions, false teachings, 21 Envy, uncontrolled drinking and feasting, and such things: of which I give you word clearly, even as I did in the past, that they who do such things WILL HAVE NO PART IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, a quiet mind, kind acts, well-doing, faith, 23 Gentle behaviour, control over desires: AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW. (BBE)

In other words, simply live your life in Christ according to the Law and not by those things the Law condemns and you will be ok.

Further, CJ needs to read Revelations 12:17 and 14:12 to see how God defines the Elect or the end time Church of God and think about his statements in that context.

Even further,CJ, we have the plain word of Messiah Yashua about the Law:

Matthew 5:17 Let there be no thought that I have come to put an end to the law or the prophets. I have not come for destruction, but to make complete. 18 Truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth come to an end, not the smallest letter or part of a letter will in any way be taken from the law, till all things are done. 19 Whoever then goes against the smallest of these laws, teaching men to do the same, will be named least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who keeps the laws, teaching others to keep them, will be named great in the kingdom of heaven.

Please note that last time I looked out the window, heaven and earth had not passed away! And when Christ is talking about the smallest letter or part of a letter not passing away, He encompasses much more than just the 10 Commandments. Yashua was teaching that ALL the commandments in the Torah were valid for believers, by Jewish tradition that is 613 Laws. Please note also what the Christ is say determines your reward in heaven! Teaching against the Law doesn't get you very far with Christ.

One more thing, CJ, please go to the following link and read the article, become educated about what you are espousing:

http://www.cbcg.org/rome's_challenge.htm

Now, based on the above, how do you think Yashua and Paul and the rest of the original Apostles would view Christianity today?

Now, for the "church apologist" "Fr Joseph". Studying Catholic history is different from studying real chruch history. Maybe you should read the following to find out where Catholic theology really came from:

http://philologos.org/__eb-ttb/default.htm

Edit: To those who quote Colossians as doing away with the Sabbath, please read more caerfully. The verse that most use to try to prove the heresy that the Sabbath is done away is talking about choosing a day to fast.

Answer 2

Probably a little of both, depending on the church. I think Paul or Jesus would find a great deal to like in the church I attend...but I accept that they would find some of the practices offensive. I've attended other churches that I think would result in a strong "What is this" reaction with an "awesome" only reserved for a few individuals in the church (if any).

Once again, you made many good points. The paganism in the Christian church (especially prevalent in certain denominations/branches) has always been a source of concern for me. I don't meet in a synagogue, I meet in a building, Y'shua met with people on a mountain, is the place really relevant. As for the Shabbat, I have practiced that for the last three years as my son attended a Jewish school, and I worship on Saturday AND on Sunday but generally keep the true sabbath (Saturday) holy (as in not working, spending time in the scriptures)...Sunday is often a work day. However, I do believe that the essential message of the sabbath is to take a break every seventh day just as God did...if my job requires me to work Tuesday through Sunday, I can still obey God's instructions by participating in the sabbath rituals on Monday...I'm not convinced that the day is relevant (though I do think it is wrong to legislate it on any day except the true sabbath as some churches do by setting aside Sunday as "the" holy day). As for Christmas and Easter, when I celebrate them, at the root of my celebration is my gratitude for the birth, death, and resurrection of my savior. I've steadily eliminated what I think are the most objectionable pagan elements of those celebrations.

Of course, God isn't finished with me yet. I have no doubt that I will continue to learn more about the scope of his will for me. Perhaps one day I will come to think differently about celebrating holidays that have any ties to paganism, perhaps I'll come to accept that the sabbath is a specific day of the week. All I know is that despite corruption and misinformation preached by churches, Christianity pointed my feet (and my eyes) in the right direction...without it, I might have never sought God's wisdom in the scriptures and I would still be lost! Condemn Christianity if you will, but without it, far fewer people would have been given the opportunity to know God...messianics may have a better understanding of the will of God but in my experience at least, very few of them are interested in sharing that knowledge with others (especially Gentiles like myself). The message of Jesus as preached by the Christian church may be flawed, but God can deal with those flaws after people choose to accept his governance...at least the church took the message to the people that needed it. You may actually know the "truth", but you're the first person I've ever heard that was willing to teach it outside of a synagogue!

Answer 3

They wouldn't recognize it . They would think they were in old pagan Rome. Which is the same now but with differant faces. The true church is all around, but hidden in small groups of believers. These small groups are not trying to entertain their congregation, act pius and holy, like the leaders of some churches do, they are just learning the Word together learning more about the Torah and it's laws and loving the laws even though we have been given grace.

Answer 4

The only thing worse than total ignorance of history is revisionist history. Nice try but no cigar. Marcion was a lame heretic who tried with his money and influence to ram through his own version of what was canonical, denying the validity of the Old Testament, and only accepting some of Paul's writings. He was excommunicated and rightly branded a heretic. His only positive contribution was that he spurred the early Church into considering something they hadn't considered before - having an "official canon" of holy writings (which would later become known as the Christian Bible). Tertullian was a brilliant writer and theologian, but he also surccumbed to heresy, the Monatist heresy.

"What if Jesus Christ walked into a church today yada yada...." What a question. I've got news for you. Jesus Christ *is* in *every* Roman Catholic church today. And I'm not talking about in spirit, or in memory, etc. His real and physical presense is there. His real presense just as when He was walking the hills of Judea and Galilee, just as when He was dying on the Cross.

As He Himself said - "Your ancestors received manna from heaven, and eventually died anyway. Eat My flesh which is true food, and drink My blood, which is true drink, and you will never die. You will be raised up on the Last Day."

Answer 5

I have been a baptized JW for over 45 years and believe me Jehovah's Witnesses would never encourage anyone to seek a divorce even when you have scriptural grounds for divorce. IF there is reason for forgiving then the course recommended would be to forgive. If the innocent mate decides to divorce due to adultery that is their decision. But adultery is the only scriptural grounds, although as mentioned abuse would be grounds for separation. As mentioned by numerous JWs already. Any true Witness of Jehovah would encourage your husband to make his marriage work regardless of whether you ever converted or not. I have an aunt who has been a witness as long as I have and her husband is an unbeliever. they are still married. Same is true of thousands of JWs, probably tens of thousands. One reason they encourage you to join your husband at meetings and other events is so that you can do these things together. Oftentimes activities that both husband and wife do not engage in together can cause a strain on a marriage because it separates you for those times. If you or your husband are invited to a picnic or other such social event please go with your husband and enjoy yourself.

Answer 6

Ahah are we talking about Las Vegas churches where you can get married in 10 minutes? The fact that the sacred act of a man and a woman getting married has been squed. (Not saying homosexual's cant be together....just not married). Jesus would do like he did to that one church that was gambling and cheating people... kick some ***.

Answer 7

As a Church historian I am sometimes amazed at the fanciful history that man can create about the Church. What a bunch of nonsense!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

Answer 8

Depends on which denominational house of worship he walked into. Some are very vibrant and can tell you what they believe and why they believe it. Others are stone mausoleums run by people who see the Church as a corporation and operate it as such. Few of these people could operate a church without so much as a passing reference to God, except to shake the small change out of a poor woman's pocket.

Answer 9

You're just a Judaizer, which Paul spoke against. Anyone that reads Galatians one time, will see that you're wrong, and a deceiver.

But they don't have to take my word for it. All they have to do is read Galatians and Colossians, and they'll see that you're wrong.

The only thing you are right about, is that "replacement theology" is false. The land of Israel belongs to the Jewish people, and He has not forsaken the Jewish people. But they still must believe in Jesus to be saved, that Jesus, who is God, died for our sins and rose again.

Answer 10

You are right about lot of things. No, the apostles and Jesus would not recognize Christendom as what they taught as "Christianity." But there is a difference between the two.