Alpha dominance - Valid training method or excuse for macho abuse?

Question

About 50 years ago, L. David Mech and others observed the interaction of wolves in their packs. Part of their scientific observation was discussions of alpha dominance in the packs.

Various people then took these ideas and applied them to dog behavior.

Since then MANY scientists, and the original observers, have come out and proven that these ideas are NOT appropriate when it comes to DOG behavior. One of their arguments, if this were true, we should be able to apply the behavior of apes to humans.

Due to a certain TV personality, these methods are enjoying a resurgence. Unscientifically, I've noticed that these methods are especially touted by the macho part of our society.

So, is this simply an excuse to rationalize abuse, or is there any SCIENCE behind any of this? If you think it's science, please give me one or two SCIENTISTS so I can read their work.

Mech - He has published ten books and numerous articles about wolves and other wildlife, the most famous of these being his books The Wolf: The Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species (1970, University of Minnesota Press) and Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation which he co-edited with Luigi Boitani (2003, University of Chicago Press)

For a discussion on Scientific Behaviorists and their views on wolf pack behaviors and why they don't apply to dogs, look at various works from Ian Dunbar (various works), Karen Pryor ("Don't Shoot the Dog" and others) and Patricia McConnell "The Other End of the Leash". These are people who have been TRAINED in the field of behavior. Karen Pryor for example studied under B.F. Skinner.

Those are some of the REAL scientists who have presented information discounting this entire idea.

Partial confusion here for some. As Bassetnut says, there is a total difference between dominance as is being presented in wolf pack behavior and leadership in telling your dog that a behavior he is doing is wrong.

Believer - Your first article is about the genetics of dogs and wolves. No argument that they are genetically similar. That doesn't mean that their behavior is similar. EXAMPLE. Foxes and wolves do not demonstrate the same pack behavior at all.

Answer 1

I think these people confuse dominance and leadership. It is not necessary to be harsh to be a leader, and is often counterproductive.

I believe there are situations that call for physical correction, but I prefer to try other things first.

Answer 2

I can see it in humans as well. Within a group there are similairaities to a "pack". I know within in our rescue group we have people we can push around all day then we have those that we know what they are capable of and thats their job then there are the alphas (yes plural but we don't live together) that are more the bullies when need be.

Same with my job for years we had an employee that we joked it was his company because he was so much more dominant than even the owners he called the shots on many things he shouldn't have.

I don't think this is to rationalize abuse or being a bully but when I bring a new foster into the pack I swear its just like fresh meat walking into the bar.

Answer 3

I can't cite scientific studies, but one of our frequent visitors to the dog forum once pointed out, "Dogs have been bred as dogs for thousands of years, and by now are quite distinct from wolves".

Interesting point about Karen Pryor. In her book, she points out that chimps and humans have body language and mannerisms that neither of us really understand in each other. Based on the logic you posted in your question (and Pryor's book), you could say that a wolf and a dog might not understand each other all too well either.

Here's an interesting question that comes to mind though ... (I don't recommend anyone try this), If you were to train a wolf, would you do it the same as you would train a dog?

Answer 4

Humans are an intensely hierarchical species. That the idea of "alpha" has persisted despite mounds of evidence that our perception of it -- a lone wolf "dominating" the others at all times -- doesn't even exist with wolves (let alone dogs) probably says as much about our tendency towards anthropomorphism as our need for control. But yeah, it's a control thing, like so much machismo.

Our culture has enough ego wrapped up in our dogs' behavior that we will happily accept abuse as "training," because the end result (behavior suppression) justifies our perception of being in control of the behavior.

Answer 5

What I find interesting is that this "tv personality" has warnings on the show, for people "not to try this at home", which makes me think, what's the point of having a show like that, if there isn't anything useful to take away and apply at home.

Personally, I'm not impressed with this person. There may be some things he does that are somewhat effective in training, but I'd like to see the cases where he's gotten nailed from what he does to some of these dogs.

Not a training method I'm interested in persuing personally. But then again, I started training young and by doing so, eliminated the possiblity of the kinds of problems this person corrects on his show. Wish more people would bother to train and not think of it when the dog is finally out of their control.

Answer 6

I have been unable to find any of the references that you have mentioned - I have been unable to find L David Mech stating that his theories do not apply to dogs. I have been unable to find any scientific references that state that alpha theory does not apply to dogs, so, in return, I ask for your scientific references. I found someone named Dr Frank Beach that several websites (clicker websites might I add) mention, but the only thing I could find actually published by a Frank Beach were on homo and heterosexuality.

I would hesitate to make the comparison to apes and humans. That's a think tightrope. We share over 99% of our genetic code with chimps. They have very similar characteristics to us. They show violence to their own kind (compared to the bonobos that just love everyone). It used to be that people said that what separated us from chimps was our ability to use tools - ooops, we were wrong. Then it was language - oops, we can teach them sign language - and they communicate JUST fine with humans that way. They use tools also. Many behaviours that we see in homo sapies are indeed seen in the apeworld. But there is a LOT more difference in our emotional/intellectual abilities than there are differences in the wolf/dog intellectual/mental developments.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I just ask for the same in return. And just so you know, a lot of biologists (which is what L David Mech is) are not scientists in that they are not studying or performing experiments, they are simply observing behaviour and trying to understand that. Very few of them go back into the lab and try and reproduce or figure out exactly which variable is the cause for certain behaviours (that's the beef chemists have with biologists . . . chemists experiment to find the variable or variables while a lot of biologists simply observe - and in reality (and their defense), you cannot recreate a wolf pack or a dog pack in the laboratory . . .)

I don't do alpha rolls. From what I have seen - with my own three dogs, alpha rolls have never occured by actually forcing the dog to roll over - in fact, our alpha rolls have all come about from a look. A body language so subtle that unless you are actually paying attention to their dynamics, you would completely miss. So what's the actual point of forcing a dog on the ground? The dominant member of the pack - be it a dog pack or a wolf pack never goes around ruling by brute force or by violence - in fact, those members are usually overthrown.

Just so you know, the only person that I could find articles about was L David Mech and I didn't find a scientific article about how he never meant for his studies to relate to dogs. And I have been searching my school's library databases (on-line access to thousands of scholarly journals and books) and I can't find anything.

Answer 7

No scientist can 'prove' anything when it comes to dog behaviour as they do not specialize in specifically this region of study. You are giving a general range when it comes down to it. It depends on the dog, fully and utterly. Take a look at a SchH3 FH2 dog, schutzhund dogs are given so much confidence as puppies that when they are ready for the training they are ready for anything. Some dogs need alpha training, whereas others may need a calm subtle approach. All depends on the dog.

Answer 8

Was looking for something else and found htis, thought you might like to read it.
http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/200704/tows_past_20070425_c.jhtml

I always used NILF on my puppy. Due to an issue not getting better that way I tried the methods of that tv personality. Tried it for about a month. No progress was made on the issue, but he did get more aggressive in general and as soon as I went back to NILF the original issue dissappeared.

Not the only time I stray from NILF is when Im worried about him hurting my kids, and then its only a smack (rump or equalivant that just gets his attention while causing no pain) to get his attention so he can be put into a sit until he calms down.

Answer 9

Even if it's how dogs behave in the wild or in groups did you know that human beings are not dogs and we can figure out better ways to deal with problems.

My roommate is a big fan of these methods and had my dog on the beginnings of becoming a submissive pee-er. I made him stop- the submissive peeing stopped.

I tend to believe if my dog is misbehaving it's usually because he is bored- needs to go for a walk/run, or anxious- needs me to calm him down. Look at the cause of the behaviour and fix it- instead of punishing.

Also- Pavlov was positive reinforcement- not negative- alpha dominance is negative reinforcement (punishment)

Answer 10

well I think there IS a tiny bit of valitity to this BUT it is way WAYoverdone by the macho types- Some people are too timid to enforce their will on an animal as an example the house cat we had when I was a teen: it wasn't allowed on the kitchen table - being a cat it got on the table anyway. If I walked in and found it on the table it got a worryed "i'm busted" look and would get off instantly when I said "Get off" (I had dumped it off a time or two when it didn't) , my brother just dumped it off if he caught it without wasting time saying get off - the cat didn't waste time going "I'm busted" he got off. MY mom on the other hand, I caught eating with the cat on the table EATING OFF THE OTHER SIDE OF HER PLATE while she was going "I wish you wouldn't do that" "mom put out your hand and push" - she couldn't, the cat knew it....

That being said if my dog looks confused and doesn't sit when told alpha rolling it ain't gonna teach it to sit!