China and Tibet? Was Tibet ever free?

Question

Westerners keep saying "free Tibet" and believe that China took over Tibet and is now an occupying force. However, my question is; was Tibet ever a sovereign country?

According to the Chinese from an older generation, like 1920s; Tibet was always a part of China, and it was never a sovereign nation. It was when China was going through so much chaos in the early 1900s did Tibet try to split away, at which point the stupid Chinese commies went there and to re-establish authority by killing monk.

The point is the world thinks of Tibet as a sovereign state, which China recently conquered, but according to older Chinese Tibet was always apart of China and got smacked around when they tried to leave. Can anyone confirm this.

It would be a shame if the western world has been fighting a cause based on lies. But then again stupid liberals often act on lies and false facts. Liberals are like children looking for a purpose for living.

Answer 1

Tibet was an independant empire from the 7th to 11th centuries.

Later it was ruled by the Dalai Lamas, with increasing Chinese influence, but it seems that historians are not clear when China effectively took control.

Answer 2

I'd caution TheDude about using as a factual source the Wikipedia article, which is written by a supporter of the Dalai Lama. It's extremely hard to find impartial histories of the kingdom of Tibet, but one of the best, Melvyn C. Goldstein's "The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the Dalai Lama," notes that Tibet became part of the Chinese empire when the Mongols under Genghis Khan conquered the kingdom back in the 13th century. (Mongols, not Chinese!) Since then the cultures and histories of China and Tibet have been intertwined, though Tibet has always been a unique culture with its own language, history and mythos. Seven centuries of Chinese colonialism have done nothing to diminish this, and in this day and age, such attempts to wipe out a particular culture and language are inexcusable. This is why the "Free Tibet" movement still flourishes, and it's why so many Westerners, especially those who follow the Dalai Lama, support it. The argument regarding the traditional beliefs of "the Chinese from an older generation, like 1920s," leaves me cold. There are many Japanese from the 1930s and 40s who still believe that Japan had the right to invade China, Korea and southeast Asia, and that Japan has no reason to apologize to those nations for its behavior during World War II. Should we support that sort of mindset, just because a particular generation says so? I don't---I actually get very angry when I hear these lies propagated by the Japanese nationalist right wing. The people who believe this propaganda are in fact ashamed of Japan's defeat and exposure of its war crimes to the world. Similarly, I think China's treatment of Tibet is shameful and the Chinese government is well aware of it: but the more people in the West protest against China's violation of civil rights---not only in Tibet but among its own citizens--- the more defensive the Chinese become. It will be interesting to see how long China can defend itself as it's forced to open its doors for the Olympics in 2008. Finally, you expose the weakness of this argument by blaming liberals for supporting Tibet's sovereignty. In fact, many conservatives here in the U.S. also support the Dalai Lama and the "Free Tibet" movement. I don't think conservatives, at least the ones I know, are "looking for a purpose for living." They live pretty freaking well and don't apologize for it. And they do not support the Chinese government's treatment of Tibet.

Answer 3

Is Tibet Its Own Country

Answer 4

Tibet has has close ties to China since the 7th century A.D.
And even closer ties from the 13th to the 18th century.

Tibet was not an actual part of China until 1951

Many contempoary Chinese will tell you that "Tibet has always been a part of China."

In fact Tibet was a "suzerainty"...

Meaning that China as a nearby and more powerful country
(suzerain) controlled it... Or rather they, (Tibet) paid tribute to China. This relationship was often sealed by the marriage of Chinese princesses to Tibetan royalty...

Answer 5

The Chinese government argues that Tibet became an integral part of China in the 13th century and has remained Chinese territory ever since. The Tibetan Government claims that Tibet was independent before the Chinese invasion in 1950.

Whatever the various arguments presented, it is generally accepted among scholars that Tibet existed and acted as an independent state from 1913 to the Chinese invasion in 1949/1950.

Answer 6

To the ppl above me: If you let the local ppl decide whether or not they can claim independence, then why shouldn't Qubec be an independent French-speaking Country(not just a nation or a state, but an independent country)? And why couldn't Amish or Mormon ppl be allowed to form their own countries? Would you be pissed if a Chinese tourist brings a 'Free Vermont', 'Free Montana' or 'Free Utah' flag to your country? (all these states are having a break-away issue) ..."Let the ppl decide" is really a rediculous theory. In Taiwan's situation, the island has alway been a part of China, even before Tibet, for hundreds of years.The land doesn't jsut belong to government of ROC or PRC, it also belongs to all the Chinese ppl, living in mainland, HK, TW or oversea. If your let-ppl-decide-independency theory works, say, we let ppl decide the future of Taiwan, then we need to let 1.4 Billion Chinese around the world make the decision, not just the Fujianese ppl in TW.

Back to the Tibet topic.
Tibet has been a part of China even before the birth of our mighty USA. Since Qing Dynasty, every Dalai Lama or BanChan(spelling?) Lama had to be approved by the CHinese central government. With the falling of Qing Empire, Britain invaded Tibet and played a big part in separating Tibet from China (i.e. Qing Empire). In early 20th century, ROC took it back. In 1950, PRC took it from ROC and ROC fled to Taiwan...
Before 1950, Tibet was a society of slavery, Dalai himself was a dictator and the leader of slave owners. Tibet Had Never Been Free before the take-over in 1950. nowadays, Tibetans are enjoying more freedom than ever.

Answer 7

Here's the deal, first off, take the liberal bashing out of your post. The free Tibet crap has no political boundaries in the states.

Second, historically Tibet was a part of China and when the world was looking the other way (I believe during the Berlin Airlift) is when Mao saw his opportunity and took it back. Which doesn't make it right but thats how it played out.

Third, Tibet has never been free, they have lived under a Religious type monarchy that was repressive and now, under the Chinese, the Tibet people have more say in their lives and their countries future then anytime in their history.

Fourth, I have heard on more then one occasion, that if the western countries would have stayed off the Tibet issue that China would not have been in a face saving posture for 5 decades while keeping it closed to all but a few.

Fifth, China last year completed passenger rail service to Tibet and is encouraging the Chinese people to visit freely. However, if you are not a Chinese citizen, then you must go with a tour group.

Sixth, the "stupid" Chinese commies did not exist back in the 1900.

Seventh, since Tibet is now opened up, has the Dali Lama asked to come back? No, but he has been asked to come back, as long as he doesn't keep up with his quest to make Tibet independent. What I am wondering about the Dali Lama, just how much is he benefiting from his constant barrage of anti Chinese sentiment? It would be interesting to look into his finances and see just how well he is living.

Eighth, the western press within the last month stated that China is choosing the living Buddha there. That is inaccurate, the Tibet people choose the living Buddha, the Chinese government then approves of the Buddha to keep out the trouble makers. They don't give a damned who it is, as long as the Buddha will keep Tibet peaceful.

I'd like to visit Tibet, but will wait till the day they give me as much freedom to travel as they do the Chinese.

Peace

Jim

.

Answer 8

You're right, and you're not the only one here.

My older generations have also claimed Tibet to be a part of China. Reason being it used to be a *tributary state*, meaning they would pay tributes(golds, gifts, valuable items) to the Qing dynasty in exchange for economic or other forms of support and protection from the central imperial court. Their past leader (Head Lama) *made that decision* to become a "tributary state".

The key of this dispute lies within the beginning of the 20th century, when china was facing problems from within and from foreign imperial powers externally, during the transition from the old dynasty system into the modern state governments. The succession was not a smooth one(civil war, sino-japanese war, etc.,). That's why you have PRC or ROC arguing for a long time over who should be the correct inheritant of "China" that did not lay to rest until the later part of the 20th century. They are really talking about who is the correct inheritant of the Qing Dynasty, China.

- So it is not China went out to "conquer" Tibet, but it is went out to secure what was originally its old territories. If during those times the communist didn't went out and secure Tibet, there's a big chance it would fall into the hands of one of the foreign imperial powers at the time trying to take a piece of China. e.g. how ROC have already lost some of what was originally Chinese territories to Russia.

So there was NO conquer or invasion, but it is securing what was originally your own territory. Right now the PRC is fulfilling its old roles like the past Qing Dynasty courts of providing economic support and development and protection to Tibet.

The results are there. Even Dalai Lama acknowledged it.

Answer 9

Tibet and china are different ..they stole and bully tibetans ..they don't even let them practise buddhism and specially dalai lama

Answer 10

The point is whether the local ppl (Tibetan) are hoping to leave China influence or not. Historical maps change according as which government draw it. It's nonsense.
The independence of the East Timor and east European countries in the last 20 years are the recent movements. Those nations wanted to go independent themselves and they made it. The will and power of the people never die.
Today world also try to see the life in Tibet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDdeW2qhZ2M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSWJ92HJX54
The current voice is real.

Okinawa hoped to be reunified with Japan after the GHQ's occupation. That is why there were no big anti-Japan demonstration. Even foreigner can travel to Okinawa without any permission today.

Taiwan will also decide their future themself in near future.

--
to the guy below. I don't say that "let-ppl-decide-independency" theory, but movements in some area after Soviet collapsed.
All Chinese? Funny. Yuan dynasty and Qing dynasty were not Han Chinese' dynasties in China. Han Chinese were under Mongolian's and Manchurian's rule. And Taiwan was a part of Japan for 50 years. Old Taiwanese admits it. And their school history book "认识台湾"(Understanding Taiwan), it describes the fact and teaches it to student with 'pros and cons'. They are not denying the time of Japan.
Don't change the history. Face the fact.