Jehovah's Witnesses, with whom did Abraham speak at Genesis 18?

Question

The text makes it clear that Abraham spoke with Jehovah, in the presence of two angels (per Genesis 19:1). It is also clear that Jehovah appeared human (see verse 2). We can therefore safely assume He had a face and body.

Yet, Jehovah said to Moses at Genesis 33:20 that "you cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live." John 1:18 also states that "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."

Since Abraham literally saw the face of Jehovah, yet Moses was told that NO ONE can see Jehovah's face, doesn't this confirm for you that Someone else also goes by the Name of Jehovah?

Abdijah, here is a PRIME example of how the WBTS has lied to you. The NWT reads at Genesis 19:18 "Then Lot said to them: “Not that, please, Jehovah!" But is this what the Hebrew text REALLY says? NO! The Jewish Publication Society translation (used by Jews worldwide) reads "18 And Lot said unto them: "Oh, not so, my lord" (notice it's not 'LORD' or 'Lord'). Why? Because the Hebrew word used there is "'adown," a word that conveys respect toward a master or ruler. It's clear tht these angels are NOT God.

Keiichi, perhaps you missed the fact that Abraham saw the faces of all three. However, he only addresses ONE "man" as "Jehovah."

Line Dancer: you wrote "After Jacob received a blessing from an angel who he had wrestled with all night, did Jacob believe this angel was God?" You answered "of course not," but ignore the FACT that Jacob (Israel) later admits that HE DID SEE GOD! He wrestled with Him face to face.

When will you see the obvioius: Moses, Jacob and the others saw JESUS CHRIST, who is God; but no one has seen GOD THE FATHER.

Bar Enosh, you do not understand Hebrew; Genesis 19:18 does not refer to Jehovah. Here's an article that will (hopefully) help you to see outside the box:

http://www.bnaiavraham.net/teaching_articles/english_teachings/RabbiEd/YHWH%20Reveals%20Himself%20to%20Avraham.pdf

Answer 1

You are right!

Furthermore, 1 Timothy 3: 16
"16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. "

And John 14: 7-10
7 "If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. "

Answer 2

Jesus at Genesis 18 was fulfilling his role as Jehovah's Chief Spokesman. (The Word) who according to the NAB is the same as Wisdom of Prov. 8:22, which states Jesus or Wisdom was the first creation.

Again the NAB at Jn 1:1 God(2) is a quality and not an identification.

So Jn 1:1 states that the Word has the qualities of God, and is not God.

Thus Jn 1:18 the only begotten (created) god explained and talked about Jehovah.

If you received a letter from your Father that came by messenger.

After reading it you would say, My Father said not the messenger said.

The words Jesus told Abraham were not his own but Jehovah's.

Thus Abraham could honestly say Jehovah said.

.

Answer 3

Abraham saw angels that were representing Jehovah. Jehovah is not an angel, he is the almighty God. They were clearly call angels several times and even Lot spoke to them by calling them Jehovah, because he knew they were sent from Jehovah God.

I'm not sure what you are saying. The bible clearing states that "no man has seen God at any time" it also states that "God cannot tell a lie" Num 23: 19. So is the bible lying or is Jesus not God, but God's son which is why humans could see him.

Answer 4

Your intemperate remarks are a PRIME EXAMPLE of how those who accuse the WT of lying are yourselves in gross ERROR.

At Genesis 19:18 the Hebrew text says *adonai*, but this is recognized as one of the 134 places where later Jewish scribes made an unauthorized alteration from YHWH, "Jehovah," to *adonai*, "my lord."

Some of the best manuscripts and early editions of the Hebrew Bible read the Tetragram YHWH at Genesis 19:18 and the 133 other places where a change was made, according to _The Massorah_, by C. D. Ginsberg, Ktav Publishing House, 1975 reprint.

Instead of being so quick to jump on the "the WT is lying" biased bandwagon, you should check your facts first.

No one has ever seen God. To communicate with humans is what He has angels and his only-begotten Son for. Though these speak "in God's name" they are not God.

Answer 5

Any angel who speaks for Jehovah, in his name, in the Bible can be referred to as "Jehovah."

Don't believe me, huh?

In Genesis 19:18, the two angels who left "Jehovah" behind are also called "Jehovah!"

There is an interesting referrel in Exodus 23:20, 21 that helps us understand this.

“Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. Watch yourself because of him and obey his voice. Do not behave rebelliously against him, for he will not pardon your transgression; because >>>my name is within him."<<<

EDIT FOR SUZANNE:

Don't be so quick to call people liars; it exposes your true motives.

What does the King James Version say?

Genesis 19:18 - "And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my LORD." All caps.

In regards to your reference, consider this:

The 134 Changes

In 134 places the Jewish Sopherim (scribes) altered the original Hebrew text from YHWH to ’Adho·nai′. Gins.Mas, Vol. IV, p. 28, § 115, says: “We have seen that in many of these one hundred and thirty-four instances in which the present received text reads Adonaī in accordance with this Massorah, some of the best MSS. and early editions read the Tetragrammaton, and the question arises how did this variation obtain? The explanation is not far to seek. From time immemorial the Jewish canons decreed that the incommunicable name is to be pronounced Adonaī as if it were written ינדא [’Adho·nai′] instead of הוהי [YHWH]. Nothing was, therefore, more natural for the copyists than to substitute the expression which exhibited the pronunciation for the Tetragrammaton which they were forbiden to pronounce."

Genesis 19:18 is one of those 134 scribal alterations.

Answer 6

More than once God has chosen a physical form to be among His people.

This is not the "face" that the scriptures are discussing.
___________
Job 19:
26
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
___________

It does not take great spiritual insight to understand that a person is not in the earthly body when seeing God in the Spiritual Body. To see God in the spiritual a person is not in the earthly form any longer.

To see God in the spirit (God is in the Kingdom) a person must first be:

John 3
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(Born to woman and follower of Christ)
_______________________________

Moses was in the presence of God's power and there are others that have been in the presence of God's might.

This is not what the scriptures mean.

God can and does use any form He chooses. And we see what God wants us to see. Is a human form - the "face" of God? I think not.

Answer 7

Correct.

Since the King James says: "No man hath seen God at any time" then Jehovah is being represented by the third angel.

Do heavenly creatures have the ability to becoming human?

Gen 19:12,15 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished.”

What heavenly creature has been given authority to speak on Jehovah’s behalf?

Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

Note: According to the trinity doctrine there is only one God. If Jesus and Jehovah is the same God then no one would have “ever” seen Jesus, period… according to John 1:18.

Answer 8

When will YOU see the obvious?
Jesus is not Jehovah, not now nor has he ever been.
The Bible does not lie, but Satan wants people to think of Jehovah as the Son and not the Father. Satan is very good at what he does. He has succeeded in making Jehovah out to be a "mystery" God, a triune God, and a God who tortures his creation forever. Why do so many fall for his tactics?
It is because as Jehovah's Word states---"They have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge."
LOBT

Answer 9

Jehovah isn't an angel!

For to which of the angels did He ever say: “ You are My Son. Heb. 1:5

God has declared Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. Col. 1:15-18

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14


In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.

For in Him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Col. 2:9

God can do anything and this includes taking on human form. We can't see God in His glory and live. However when He was in human flesh in the person of Jesus Christ God was revealed. Basically those who saw Jesus saw God!

Jesus is God in human form and that explains why Abraham could talk to him and fix Him a meal. Adam also walked with God in the cool of the day. You can't walk if you don't have feet. If we are created in the image of God then God has human features. Eyes, head, arms, legs, fingers....

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” Ex. 3:14

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58

Answer 10

The question about Genesis 18:22, concerning the three angelic visitors who appeared as men and visited Abraham to tell him his wife Sarah would give birth to a son. “At this point the men turned from there and got on their way to Sodom; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham.” Someone might ask, How was Jehovah standing before Abraham, now that the men, the angels, had left? By carefully reading the context you learn that it does not say that the three angels who appeared as men left. Rather, you note at the beginning of the next chapter that it says: “Now the two angels arrived at Sodom by evening.” So only two angels left the presence of Abraham and went to Sodom, not three. The logical answer, then, must be that one angel remained behind, standing before Abraham, and this angel represented Jehovah. Jehovah’s angelic representative had not yet withdrawn and disappeared from Abraham’s presence but was still standing before him and was able to be viewed by Abraham.

Still another example illustrating the need to read the context carefully is the question, Who sold Joseph into Egypt? Some have quickly read Genesis 37:28: “Now men, Midianite merchants, went passing by. Hence they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the waterpit and then sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty silver pieces. Eventually these brought Joseph into Egypt.” Some have drawn the conclusion from this text that it was actually the Midianite merchants who took Joseph from the pit and that these merchants, in turn, sold Joseph to another group, the Ishmaelites, who brought him to Egypt. But is that correct?

By reading the context carefully, you will note that verse 27 of that chapter says that the brothers of Joseph were the ones who determined to sell Joseph to the Ishmaelites. Now when you read the last verse of the chapter, “The Midianites sold him into Egypt,” to what conclusion do you come? Either the Midianites were also called Ishmaelites or the Midianite merchants were men traveling in the Ishmaelite caravan; and Joseph was sold to them by his brothers. If you read farther you get more confirmation at Genesis 45:4, 5, where Joseph himself says: “I am Joseph your brother, whom you sold into Egypt.” So by reading the entire account you get the right viewpoint, namely, that the Midianite merchants did not make off with Joseph and then sell him to the Ishmaelites but that Joseph’s brothers themselves sold him to the merchants. The Ishmaelites and Midianites were related to each other through Abraham their forefather.

Answer 11

Abraham did not literally see the face of Jehovah. If he had, it would prove John 1:18 a lie when it said: "No man has seen God at any time." So what God told Moses was consistent with the rest of the Bible. Abraham did not see God and neither did Moses.

Abraham received a visit from “three men” who clearly were from God. Greeting them, Abraham said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant.” (Genesis 18:1-3) Of course, Jehovah God himself had not appeared in the flesh to Abraham, for ‘no man may see Him and yet live.’ (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18) Hence, Abraham must have expressed himself this way because of recognizing that these “men,” and perhaps one of them in particular, represented Jehovah. This agrees with other occasions when angels of God appeared to humans and were spoken of as “Jehovah” for they were heavenly representatives of the Most High.

For example, At Judges chapter 6, an angel spoke with Manoah about the future birth of his son Samson. Did Manoah know this messenger was an angel? Yes, he did. At verse 21, it says: "And Jehovah’s angel did not repeat appearing to Manoah and his wife anymore. Then it was that Manoah knew that he had been Jehovah’s angel." HOWEVER, in the very next verse, Manoah told his wife: " “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen." Manoah KNEW the messenger was an angel sent to deliver a message frm God. That's why he said he had seen God, even though he really hadn't.

One more example of someone saying he saw God, even though it was actually an angel. After Jacob received a blessing from an angel who he had wrestled with all night, did Jacob believe this angel was God? Of course not. If he had, it would not have been necessary for Jacob to ask the angel for his name. (Gen. 32:29) After the angel left, Jacob said: "I have seen God face to face, and yet my soul was spared." (Gen. 32:30) Did Jacob REALLY believe he had seen God? No.

No Bible character literally saw God, and they knew it. It was their way of acknowledging the angels' roles in delivering express orders from Jehovah. That is why Thomas could say to Jesus, who was God's chief spokesman: "My Lord and my God." John 20:28