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Question

"Dominance theory" such as it is applied to dog behavior, has been disproven for more than 20 years? Wolf "packs" are actually a familial unit, made up of the breeding pair (formerly called "alpha") and their offspring. Almost every wolf, regardless of rank, goes off to breed and form their own pack, and so becomes "alpha". These alphas also do not always lead the pack in activities or walk ahead of the pack (Mech 1999)

Domestic dogs, on the other hand, are NOT pack animals. They are social animals and when seen in the wild (village dogs that are seen around the world), form loose and fluid social groups for purposes of mating, but not packs like wolves. (Coppinger 2001)

If you're interested in learning more, check out these books and links:
http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB700

http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/scientific/mech_pdfs/267alphastatus_english.pdf

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2004/Debunking.pdf

Greekman, I would love to work with your "dominant" Malinois. Send him on over. Malinois are a joy to work with and respond incredibly well to positive training methods. Just ask Ivan Balabanov who has numerous Schutzhund and obedience titles on his Malinois.

My "theory" comes from the foremost wolf and wild dog researchers in the country. Where does yours come from?

I find it fascinating that those with the most "experience" around dogs are the least willing to learn more about the animals they live with.

It's hard to challenge your own beliefs - I know, I used to buy into the whole pack theory myself years ago. But the evidence is out there and it has been proven time and time again.

Answer 1

Well, first of all, I have to say that I've never found much to agree on with the Coppingers -- yes, despite the fact that they've published books.

I find it odd that David Mech would say that every wolf in a pack, regardless of status, goes off to form their own pack...I'd like to see the quote (I imagine I'll look it up)...this seems to put the pack unit itself at a survival disadvantage...if everyone leaves, who helps take down the prey, raise the cubs, etc.?

While I agree that the alphas in a wolf pack do not necessarily "lead" in activities or walk ahead of the pack, I'm not sure what this proves...alphas exist to establish and keep order, not to domineer everyone else in the pack. They don't have to "walk ahead" of everyone else -- that's a human interpretation of dominance. Who cares who's ahead, as long as everyone is working together and things are running smoothly?

I spend a lot of time *behind* teams of my dogs while running them in harness. I let them make a lot of their own decisions, because I trust them to play their part in the team...but, believe me, if things go wrong, or someone decides to argue with the dog next to them, I am the one in charge.

As for domestic dogs not being pack animals -- in the sense of the wolf pack, wherein only one pair breeds, etc, this is true. However, in the sense of hierarchy and social harmony, I don't believe it. I have lived with packs of dogs for 20 years, and I have spent much of my time watching their social interaction. I have 3 packs in my kennel right now, each with a very definite hierarchy. These are team dogs, sled dogs, primitive dogs. Their group dynamic has nothing to do with mating, and everything to do with functioning smoothly...if everyone knows their place, nobody gets hurt. I have had the misfortune of seeing them work to kill prey, a pack of my own dogs, and it very much reminded me of the dynamic one would see among wild canids.

I have used pack theory and my own dominance over my dogs to train and keep order for a very long time.

ASKER:
"My "theory" comes from the foremost wolf and wild dog researchers in the country. Where does yours come from?"

Living with large numbers of a primitive breed for 20 years. I guess that would make me a researcher, too. Or, at the very least, a keen observer of pack behavior.

ASKER:
"I find it fascinating that those with the most "experience" around dogs are the least willing to learn more about the animals they live with."

And I find it fascinating that people would rather believe what they read in a book by someone they don't know, rather than what they see with their own eyes.

Answer 2

That is very interesting.
then how come where I live their are wolfs, and quite often domestic dogs join a wolf pack ,, I have seen it my self a few times . a pack of wolfs with a dog member .
I have a pack of 10 mastiffs all running together and you can ask my husband ,, and the dogs agree, I am the dominant ***** in this house. People often think the dominant dog is the toughest dog , that is not true, dominance {can often be }established threw a being "self confident", my girl Kara never had a fight with the other dogs her whole life , but if a dog was laying on her pillow she just stood over them and looked at them and they would move.
Do all my dogs follow each other NO, do my dogs follow me YES, why because I am the pack leader
As a matter of fact all my dogs know humans are above them .
Even if dogs did form a
'loose and fluid social group as you state"
dominance would still play a major factor in this" loose social group". and if there is dominance, their is a higher status and a lower status , so there is a social structure.

It seems to me the ones disputing your "non pack" theories are us who live 360 days a year for many, many years or most of our lives with a pack.
Another add on :
I notice pack structure the most on the death of a dominant dog,
After the death, their is quite often a shuffle of pack order, with a few demestic disputes among the dogs.
I have in tacked males and open females all together , I seperate the dogs when the girls come in season {as we know, being pack animals all the girls come in season at the same time } , but they all get along the rest of the time,even intact boys . I find dogs in the number 2 and 3 positions have the most conflict {I call them the wonna be's} . The number one dog seldom has a conflict with the other dogs .

Answer 3

In "97" I adopted a Siberian Husky who was severly abused from a shelter. He came to us aggressive, starving and yet afraid to eat, would howl if left alone in a room. He had many behavior problems to the point that I trained him to always be with me or on the top of our stairs if I wasn't home. I did that to try and keep from having him put down because he would growl and show teeth if you went neer anything that he felt was or should be his. My duaghter was 6 at the time. Within a year and it tok that long to train him he would search for who ever in the family you asked him to find. He would run errands, bring this to Momma and he woulld, go get paper towels and he would. He suffered from horrible nightmares and would wake up growling and biting so he was always kept in my room away from my little one at night.

I trained him with only positive reinforcement and the 1 negative command of "No". I never yelled but always rewarded.

One night he was in the backyard taking care of business and spotted a raccoon and started to run after it, I called "No, Dallas". He stopped, gave me a look like a teenager being caught drinking and slunk all the past me in the doorway to bed.

He was wonderful if he was with people or other animals. When left alone he howled, a lot. For us that was fine because there seemed to always be activity around the house.

I guess my point is that he florished being part of our family. I was his caretaker and teacher, if my mother told him to do something he would look to me for approval but if my Dad gave him a command he obeyed without question. We were already an extended family and he just was another family member.

I think from my experience that the theory of a family unit is very accurate.

Answer 4

Dogs aren't wolves, much in the same way as humans aren't chimps. There are definite similarities, but also definite differences. I wouldn't expect dogs to vary too much from wolf behavior, but I would expect SOME deviance. It's an interesting point, but one thing I've learned is nothing is black and white. Animals are going to keep behaviors that are adaptive, and, as Loki said, breaking down a pack is not adaptive. The only way that would be adopted is if it served a different purpose (humans, for example, are more likely to choke to death than chimps because our anatomy is different - but it's a sacrifice we make to produce the sounds that form language, so at least we can make funny noises to alert others that we're choking, and language has proved to be very adaptive).

I'm not convinced. It's interesting, but there will always be conflicting research.

Answer 5

greekman, DP , and loki....are right. I don't think i have the knowledge they have. but i have worked with trainers and many aggressive...backward and abused dogs in the 15 years i have worked with dogs either at a shelter or strays that found their way in to my 'pack' and a feral pack that chased me while horseback riding (the horse flight over took fight when they charged...just like a pack of wolves.

being a good pack leader does not mean being abusive...which seems to be what u think alpha is.

a dog is a dog and should be treated like a dog....which comes of wolf....and no matter what we breed to use the dog but the wolf is still there..evolution just doesn't work that way....that we breed out the wolf. not that fast anyway...

but there are always 2 sides...or more. and i must say i tend not to believe EVERYTHING i read.. i like to think for myself.

Answer 6

Stop, I am on the floor, laughing so hard from what you said, it's killing me. How and where did you come up with that theory? WE, working dog people, pick dogs, on purpose, with strong pack drives. Have you ever SEEN an actual wolf pack or a wild dog pack? All that crap about dominance training and there is no such thing as hierachy in a pack and dogs being social creatures and all that, you have it all confused. EVERYTHING a dog does stems from pack drive, everything. The desire for pack drive is stronger then the desire to breed. The dog is a social animal precisely because it forms a PACK and wants to please an alpha male and female.. I am getting a new dog shortly, a malinois that I understand has some serious dominance issues from Belgium. Let me have your address, I will send him to you since you are a dog trainer and you can clicker train him for me to compete in NVBK and also certify him in detection and patrol work. I am waiting....

ADD: Mine come from 27 years of training. Ivan lives a couple of hours up the coast from here. Do you know Ivan? Have you ever trained with him? Have you ever titled a dog in any of the disciplines you mentioned? I will be more then happy to send you my dog to train, but, I am not sure how good you medical coverage is. The last one that came in for me had a hard time accepting anyone telling him anything. His previous handler sold him because the dog put him in the hospital, twice...

ADD AGAIN: Someone I know has a kennel with 30 siberians in it, all her personal dogs. I am amazed at the amount of pack drive these dogs exhibit. I am also amazed at the amount of respect these dogs have for the alpha in that kennel, which in this case is the person I am speaking of. I have been doing this a long time, 27 years, but, when I see someone just give a look at a pack of 30 dogs or just say a word to them and her wish is carried out immediately, I bow in respect. I know there is a pack theory and a pack drive, I have seen it and experienced it and took advantage of it for training for a long time.

Answer 7

Hmmm... You shouldn't believe everything you read..
As someone w/ 10 dogs, who all live in the house, who are allowed to be dogs, but have rules and regulations that they must abide by... I can say that there is most definitely a pack order. Dogs are very much pack animals.. They are social, but they maintain their pack instinct.

If you spent some time watching dogs interact with one another.. You would know that you are wrong about dogs.. Wolves.. Who knows.. I don't live with wolves. But dogs maintain pack order, and live by that...

Answer 8

Sorry, but I STRONGLY disagree with you. I have had up to 6 dogs in my home and work with multiple dogs in our rescue and they are very much pack animals. This becomes extremely evident when you introduce a new member.
I wouldn't believe everything you read. Research can be wrong. Remember when they said Phen-fen was totally safe??

Answer 9

I don't believe it's wise to develop a training regimen solely based on what you read.
Remember, the dogs didn't read the same books and articles that you did.

Answer 10

Yep, knew that.