To non-Messianic Jews-- why do you reject Yeshua (Jesus) as Messiah?

Question

Have you examined the Tanakh and don't believe He meets the prophecies, or does it have more to do with Rabbinic tradition and Talmudic religion? What would you have to see in the Tanakh to believe He might be the Mashiac?

To those who disregard Him because of tradition, why do you feel that tradition is so important in deciding what is truth? Also, why do you feel that Mishnah, Talmud, etc. has authority to rightly interpret Torah?

Paine-- Not picking on them. I'm just curious as to the reasoning behind the rejection of Christ by people who believe in the Tanakh (Old Testament) which many Christians and Messianics believe prophecies about Jesus. Even though Isaiah 53 says the Messiah is killed for our sins and Zechariah 12:10 says He will be God, Jewish rabbis reject this identity for the Messiah outright.

Inat-- I understand that Jews expected the Messiah to fulfill everything at once, but there are a few prophecies He did fulfill which you said He didn't as well as a few which the Rabbis say are not in the Tanakh which are.

For instance--
He was descended from King David, but 1 Chron 22 doesn't say Messiah will be by Solomon, just that Solomon will rebuild the temple.

He was an observant Jew.

He did attract people from all nations. Why do you think Christianity is predominantly Gentile now?

Jer. 31 has a prophecy about the Holy Spirit living in the hearts of believers guiding them to know God's holy law when a New Covenant is enacted. Yeshua's covenant was to the Jews first and many Jews believed. Gentiles were grafted into this covenant also. Christians of all races can be filled with the Holy Spirit and have God's law written on their hearts.

Also, The Tanakh DOES say that the Messiah will be God (Isa 9:6, Ps 45:7, Zech 12:10) and that God does have a Son (Ps 1:12, Prov 30:4).

Answer 1

Here is why we don't believe that Jesus was the messiah in simple terms:
1) The dead were not resurrected
2) The Jews did not beome priests to the other nations
3) There is no world peace
4) The temple is not standing
5) There is no temple service
6) There is no parah adumah or its ashes to render us tahor
7) The messiah is from the House of David. your house/tribe is inherited from your father. Your father is your BIOLOGICAL father- there is no adoption in Judaisim to another father- if God is the father of Jesus- then Jesus cannot be from the House of David as God is not frm the House of David.
8) Human sacrifice is completely forbidden in Judaism- remeber God stopping the sacrifice of Isaac? The idea of a human being sacrificed is the opposite of anything from Judaism!
9) You have to atone for yourself! An essential part of the atonement process is being repentant. Someone cannot be repentant for you- you have to do it for yourself. ONly communal sins can be forgiven communally- not individual, private sins!

And no- the messiah does NOT proclaim himself- he will be recognised by his deeds- not by his claims- in other words, through doing the above he will be recognised as the messiah. On top of that- mashiach is a HUMAN being, with HUMAN parents- the idea of an anthropomorphised God going around and impregnating young woman is completely alien to Judaism- though it fits very nicely into the pagan religions of the time which had their heroes being fathered by gods (ala Hercules and his daddy Zeus)

And no- he was NOT an observant Jew- isn't it recirded that he commanded his followers to pick and eat baerley on shabbos- when picking barley still attached to the ground is forbidden?

NOTE ON MESSIANIC JUDAISM/JEWS FOR JESUS
Both of these are deemed as nothing more than Christian sects using deceitful means to convert Jews. EVERY Jewish denomination denounces these sects as Christians and nothing more. However, by Jewish law, once a Jew, always Jew- whether born or converted. Thus once a person is Jewish they are always judged by Jewish standards, and if they revert/convert to a different religion they are still considered Jewish by Jewish law. BUT, someone practising a religion other than Judaism is considered outside of the community, may not be a member of the community, receive any community honours, be a representative for the community, be buried in a Jewish cemetary, marry a Jew or be treated as a Jew for the purposes of the laws of mourning. However, since they never stop being a Jew- they merely have to repent, return to Judaism and go to mikveh in order to once again be a full member of the community.

And none of the verses you refer to talk about God having a son. To believe so requires a person to completely ignore the actual text and hebrew meanings of the verses to come up with something that is completely divorced from what it says.

Answer 2

I reject J.C because he did not fulfill the following requirements the Jewish messiah has to fulfill:
* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
* Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
* The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
* He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
* Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
* He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

Answer 3

First of all:
Am I living in Jerusalem now? Is there world peace? Is Jesus STILL dead? Yeah. He's not my messiah, buddy. Who cares if he fulfilled all the prophecies and whatnot. So did the Lubavitcher Rebbe. But what do they both have in common? They're dead, and the mashiach hasn't come yet. To be Jewish, you don't need to accept someone as your messiah. You need to accept yeah, there is a messiah, yeah, there will be an eternal era of peace, but its not here yet... The reason why we don't beleive in Jesus, though, even as a possibility, is simply the fact that he deviated from the core of Judaism, changed laws, preached against them. He was a person who didn't like the rules of the game and made his own. The Rebbe, however, didn't. The Rebbe played ball by OUR rules and he still rocked the house. Thats why that even though he's dead some people haven't ruled him out as a possible messiah. Even those who think he his, they don't 'accept' him as the Mashiach -- they know the right mashiach will come at the oppertune moment.

Tradition is EXTREMELY important in the truth. A sefer Torah, for example, is not kosher if there is a single deviance from the original scripture. My synagogue has Torahs from the 1840s and letter by letter they are the same as one made today, and the same as they were a thousand years ago. Judaism, in itself, has a way of preserving the truth. We don't alter writings. We memorize things. Write them down. Pass them from father to son, mother to daughter. Some families have traditions that lasted from the middle ages, so tradition has EVERYTHING to do with maintaining the truth. The Talmud, or even broader, all of the Oral Law, it's been transmitted generation to generation from the founders of it to us today. Its a vital core to Judiasm. In the 1600s, people would memorize the stuff their Rabbis would say and then repeat the explanation to their kids or to their neighbors. Torah, Judaism, and especially the oral law promote the passing of knowledge, unaltered and unadultered, from generation to generation.

why do we feel the Talmud has the authority to rightly interpret the Torah? The Talmud itself doesn't. The Talmud is thousands of pages of the writings and debates of very intelligent Rabbis, who learned laws and traditions from their teachers, going all the way back to Moses himself. The Talmud doesn't 'interpret' the Torah. The compliers of the Talmud EXPLAIN it. They tell you what each verse means, why this word is there, and they explain the laws of the Torah. Moses interpreted God's word. We just follow it.

Answer 4

The word 'messiah' is the anglicisation of the Hebrew 'moshiach'. The word moshiach translates to 'anointed'. The title of moshiach was given to any person who was appropriately anointed with oil as part of their initiation to their service of HaShem. We have had many moshiachim (pl) in the form of kings, priests, prophets, and judges. There is absolutely nothing supernatural about a moshiach. This being said, there is a prophecy of a future moshiach, however, this is a relatively minor topic in Judaism and the Tanach. The Jewish requirements of hamoshiach are: * Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28) * Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6) * Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4) * Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "HaShem will be King over all the world -- on that day, HaShem will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9) * Hamoshiach must be descended on his father's side from King David (Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1) * Hamoshiach will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4) There is no prophecy of a virgin birth - Isaiah 7 contains a short term prophecy that was fulfilled in Isaiah's lifetime. The prophecy itself makes no mention of a virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin is 'b'tulah' which Isaiah uses throughout his writings. However, in this chapter, the word 'almah' is used. Almah means young woman and in this chapter, the young woman in question was already pregnant. The issue was that the Greeks did not have a word that was the equivalent to 'almah', instead, the translators used the word 'parthenos' which can mean either young woman OR virgin. In the prophecy itself, young woman's child simply served as the timeline for the prophecy itself: by the time the child is old enough to know good from bad, X would have occurred. There is no specification as to where hamoshiach will be born. Mentions of Bethlehem are in reference to hamoshiach being a descendant of King David. There is no specification as to when hamoshiach will be born. Daniel was talking about the destruction of the first Temple, construction of the second Temple, and then the destruction of the second Temple. As to whether Jesus met any of the requirements of being hamoshiach, the answer is that no, he did not meet a single one.

Answer 5

The Tanakh is the reason Jews reject Jesus, because Jesus does not fit the description of the Messiah, in fact there have been many false Messiahs who fit the description more than Jesus.

Answer 6

I have examined the Tanakh. He does not meet the prophecies, no question about it. I wouldn't have to see anything in the Tanakh to believe he is the moshiach because the Tanakh doesn't change, as much as the Messianic "Jews" want it to. He would actually have to do the things the Tanakh already says--which he didn't. And he is dead. So sorry.


"Even though Isaiah 53 says the Messiah is killed for our sins"

Isaiah 53 does not say that at all. Isaiah is talking about all of Israel through the whole process.

"Zechariah 12:10 says He will be God,"

Actually, Zechariah 12:10 says no such thing.

10. And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.

"I understand that Jews expected the Messiah to fulfill everything at once, but there are a few prophecies He did fulfill which you said He didn't as well as a few which the Rabbis say are not in the Tanakh which are."

He didn't fulfill any besides the ones that ever male born in Israel fulfills. And even if he did fulfill some, it doesn't matter because he didn't fulfill them all.

"He was an observant Jew."

He broke laws. Moshiach will uphold every iota of Jewish law. J*sus broke them.

"He did attract people from all nations. Why do you think Christianity is predominantly Gentile now?"

So? The prophecy is that people of all nations will come to know One G-d. Obviously, that has not happened.

Jeremiah 31 talks about the Messianic age. One of the things that will bring about Moshiach coming is Israel completely upholding the covenant--then Moshiach will arrive and with him, the Messianic era. There is nothing about a Holy Spirit in there.

The Tanakh actually says the opposite (that messiah will be G-d) as it is a blasphemy and against Judaism and against G-d's own words to say that G-d could be incarnate.

Isaiah 9:6
To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.

Where do you get a divine messiah from this?

Psalm 45 is a song in honor of Torah scholars. It is not a messianic prophecy. Duh.

Zecariah 12:10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.

Since when does simile become messianic prophecy? Now you're really grasping straws here.

Psalm 1 only has 6 verses.

Proverbs 30:4 is not talking about G-d, but a mortal man:
Who ascended to heaven and descended? (like Moses) Who gathered wind in his fists? Who wrapped the waters in a garment? (the floods stood up like a heap through Moses' prayer) Who established (the Tabernacle, through whose establishment all the ends of the earth were firmly established.) all the ends of the earth? What is his name and what is the name of his son, if you know?

Sorry--I guess you will have to try a little harder next time. Did you know that the punishment for trying to turn a Jew to idolatry is kares?

For my final note. There is nothing Jewish about Messianicism. They are a virulent sect of Xtianity devoted to destroying Judaism. They are not Jewish and never will be in their current state.

Answer 7

It is for the very first reason you listed. The Tanach listed what the messiah would do, and Jesus failed to do it. Ergo he is not the Messiah.

As for Issiah 53, nowhere in the entire text dose it talk about, mention or reference the messiah. In addition anyone after the fact can claim that this person died for your sins.


If you want something that talks about the Messiah try this.

Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

---Dose this sound like Jesus?

Answer 8

(what would i need to see, in the t'n'kh, to convince me that jesus could be 'the messiah'? hmmmm, how about a line of mickey mouse clones, pointing to the heavens, as a heavenly voice calls out "shave and a haircut, two bits!... no? well, how about the heavenly voice calling out the next lotto winning numbers? no?.... well, to be honest, even if a 'heavenly voice WERE to call out, if it were to say anything which varies from accepted jewish practice, we would ignore it, since that is what g-d's told us to do.


so, why do we reject jesus? how about because he isn't and wasn't 'the messiah'? how's that?



i've studied t'n'kh, and first of all, the sections you christians claim foretell jesus, you've mistranslated and taken out of context. and those sections which discuss mashiach, clearly disqualify the man for the position.
there isn't anything that could be pointed out, or finessed to make me believe that jesus was anything more than a man, a charismatic man, perhaps, but, still, a mortal man.

the mishnah, the gemorah, the tosephos, the mefarshim, all have the 'authority' to 'rightly interpret' the torah, because they do. it's not circular reasoning. the rabbis who were involved in the discussions which preceded the oral tradition, were all incredibly well versed in halacha, in t'n'kh, in hashgafos, and all lived their lives for the purpose of fulfilling the law AS IT WAS WRITTEN. they weren't trying to change anything, to make something fit (after the fact), they weren't trying to 'reform' anything. they were living, as they were commanded to, as their father's were commanded to... and so on and so on. while each succeeding generation built their words on the foundations of preceeding generations; those previous generations were closer to the actual giving of the torah, and were less likely to make mistakes or errors in judgements.

we're never going to accept that man as anything more than, or different from a mortal man. accept that, or not, it's your choice, but, nothing is going to change our minds, when we know the truth.

Answer 9

And one more thing: "Messianic Jews" are **not** Jews.

This is taken from the reference section of this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Jesus

1. “"We believe that Jewishness is a birthright. It is inherited from our parents. Our people are not of one culture; we have diverse cultural expressions (Ashkenazi/Sephardi, Georgian/Russian, Ethiopian, Persian, etc.). Our people are not of one religion. While Judaism might be the traditional religion for many Jewish people, Jews are still considered Jewish even though they might be atheists or even if they embrace other beliefs. Those who say that Jews who believe in Jesus are errant Jews or misguided Jews are entitled to their opinions. But they are not entitled to negate our Jewishness. We are Jews by birth and that cannot change."
2. "There is virtual unanimity across all denominations [of Judaism] that Jews for Jesus are not Jewish." (Kaplan, Dana Evan. The Cambridge Companion to American Judaism, Cambridge University Press, Aug 15, 2005, pp. 139-140).
3. "For most American Jews, it is acceptable to blend some degree of foreign spiritual elements with Judaism. The one exception is Christianity, which is perceived to be incompatible with any form of Jewishness. Jews for Jesus and other Messianic Jewish groups are thus seen as antithetical to Judaism and are completely rejected by the majority of Jews". (Kaplan, Dana Evan. The Cambridge Companion to American Judaism, Cambridge University Press, Aug 15, 2005, p. 9).
4. Jewish groups:
o "To make the record clear, Jews for Jesus is a Christian missionary organization – period." Jews for Jesus: Jewish or Christian? You Decide, Jews for Judaism website, retrieved September 11, 2006.
o "Messianic Jewish organizations, such as Jews for Jesus, often refer to their faith as fulfilled Judaism, in that they believe Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies. Although Messianic Judaism claims to be Jewish, and many adherents observe Jewish holidays, most Jews regard Messianic Judaism as deceptive at best, fraudulent at worst. They charge that Messianic Judaism is actually Christianity presenting itself as Judaism." (Balmer, Randall. Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism, Baylor University Press, Nov 2004, p. 448).

Answer 10

I not a Jew, but, you may want to read Romans 11:25-26.