Could you be deceived?

Question

Buddhist, Christian, Sufi, Wiccan, whatever your path - could you be deceived about it?
What certainty do you have - of your own knowledge, not what anyone has told you, however high their authority - what certainty do you have of the truth of your particular way?
How can you be sure?

Answer 1

*sigh*

There are so many people, especially in the Western world, who presume that spiritual paths are about blind, dogmatic acceptance of unprovable postulates. But -- until and unless you make them be that -- they're not. Dogmatic, unprovable beliefs are most emphatically NOT the foundation of human religiousness.

It was so refreshing finally to see in this thread the quotation of the Buddha from the Kalama Sutra (Innerpeacemom's answer), where he's saying real clearly that religiousness can be and should be a matter of practical, verifiable experience.

There are hundreds of sources, from all corners of the world, pointing out simply and emphatically that religous matters are matters to be tested, tried out, and explored. Human spirituality is at its most fundamental basis an open-eyed, open-hearted, practical investigation.

Even "faith" is a PRACTICE. It's a willingness to open your mind. It's a readiness to be available for an empirical experience. It's a willing receptivity to and admission of the quite obvious fact that our intellects do not and cannot contain everything. But so many people -- both religious people and anti-relgious people -- presume that faith is about closing your mind in some kind of blind belief and thereby ending your relationship with reality.

It takes faith to be honest. It takes faith to open your mind. It takes faith to feel. And until you are honest, until you are open, and until you feel, YOU WILL BE DECEIVED.

The Buddhists place that understanding front and center. Zen goes so far as to call on us to "throw out" words and letters -- they'll let a flower be a sermon all by itself -- precisely because they are so keenly aware of our inherent tendency to allow words, symbols, and rituals to be occasions of self-deception. They know only too well how ready we are to choose to believe what we ourselves have DECIDED those words, symbols, and rituals mean.

I even saw a Christian on here today warning against having an open mind, because that will lead to being influenced by the devil. I've got to say, that sounds precisely like the talk of someone the devil has already possessed.

But atheists who claim to know there is no God, atheists who claim the authority to judge millenia of humankind's most insistently careful, deeply wise, and thoroughly sound experience -- experience which often finds poetic expression in "God language" -- they, too, are possessed, held within the cage of their own too facile judgments.

GET REAL.

Then and only then will you evade deception. Then and only then will you know peace. Then and only then will you appreciate the heart of human religion.

And then and only then will you realize you no longer need religion.
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Answer 2

The more desperate one is, the easier it is to be deceived.
The Way is long and continuous. There are even Ways which say there is not a Way. This can be very confusing.

The situation I would like to point out in a simplistic manner is where students of the Way begins to make progress which sets them apart from most others. What often happens then is that they can attract large numbers of also well meaning followers, well educated people, trustable people, and loving people. The organization can become powerful and wealthy under the heading of religious groups.

One of the problems is that at any moment such leaders can take a wrong turn. They may or may not notice that something has gone wrong. The choice for them is to either let everyone know that they have made a major error and dismantle the whole works or keep up the pretense. Well since something has gone wrong in their evolution, since some form of disease has snuck in, there is a better chance that these individuals will either decide to continue their lifestyle as if nothing was wrong or worse yet hide that fact from themselves. This is a real and dangerous situation. Many thousands of devotees sacrifice their sanity, lives, and health to such errant souls. I have seen irrepairable damage done and I have seen others who after dozens of years were well able to accept the facts and move on to salvage what was left and sometimes to advantage. Some also are able to convince themselves that all is well and carve themselves a cozy enough little niche for just a while longer.

Answer 3

In a sense, all truths are relative to your experience, your life, and there really is no absolute truth. Are you sure you are at your computer reading these words? Well, let's say you are fairly sure. That's not 100% . You could be deceived by something or someone who is really clever.

There comes a point in your questioning of whether or not you are at your computer reading these words that you take in all the available information and you make an assessment. Your conclusion is based on fallible senses, imperfect reasoning powers, and is therefore always suspect. But waiting for absolute truth gets you no where, and sometime, you have to dive off that diving board and follow the path that your senses tells you is correct.

I'm an agnostic pagan Witch, and I chose this path after having looked at the choices before me. All are subject to an imperfect decision. All one can do is be reasonably sure.

Are you sure about your path?

Answer 4

Appearances can be deceiving, But the purpose of this deception is the one that needs to be understood.

but when registered by senses, which are not perfect. So yes true, we are deceived, and we will be. That is the base of a material world.

but what cannot be registered, nor controlled by this deceiving force, are the ones which we can follow, and are also the ones which we can be sure of.

"When Buddha opens his eye, the ignorance is gone."


what does this mean, what eye is being pointed here..

i can give a some examples, sight may be deceiving.. after all human eyes are so limited and error prone. these are all under the control of material world.

once you are no more dependent of these limited objects, and limited pleasure... than you can without any concept of doubt.. believe the rest.

when you can see an object without the influence of three modes of material manifest , ie... goodness, ignorance and passion .. than you are seeing the true form of that object.

so get free form this limited senses and the events registered.

open your eyes, towards the reality beyond the 3 modes and material manifest ... than you can be sure. because you dont have to be unsure anymore..

now you are scared because if you are not right, and what you are believing is not correct .. you fear what will happen... and to really know what will happen... one will have to know what is there to happen.. once you get beyond these , and Buddha opens his eyes towards reality without any influence of nature.. there is no duality anymore.. its the same and its in front of you..



-- deito

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Answer 5

I think we can all be deceived. Susceptibility to deception is part of human nature. Revelation warns that there will be false prophets who will deceive people. But think about that for a minute. Who would be deceived by false prophets? Not atheists and agnostics, because they don't believe in prophets to begin with! The deceivees (if that's a word) will be people of faith, for whom the false message resonates, for whom it sounds authentic! So it's people of faith who must be on guard against false messages, who must critically examine their teachings and their own beliefs to see if they're really consistent with the Biblical standards they claim to believe. Paul even said: "Test everything and hold fast to that which is good".

Answer 6

To be 'deceived' means that there are those who wish to obfuscate the truth. In that regard I think I can be. Since I have no way of being certain, except for what I see, we have 'beliefs'. If you believe that some teaching is true then, it is so.
However, the key is to be able to accept all the other teachings equally as true. We have to be able to gain more knowledge and different perceptions from others. (The blind men and the elephant story). Religion, which is 'belief' based has to maintain a particular shape in order to maintain itself. Otherwise it cannot exist as a religion. It will die off in a few generations. I see it as a jig saw puzzle. Each fitting into one another at certain borders. Together it forms a big picture. I also BELIEVE that we can see the truth no matter what people say, from the one road we pursue. No need to start re-inventing the wheel, so to speak, by becoming another 'religion'. We have enough Gods, Gurus, Goblins to sort out. I say, Let it Be.

Thanks for your great question.

Answer 7

I have explored so many different paths, and in an effort to acquire a sense of completion, I became a baptized Christian. In the 25+ years of my searching, I never tied myself to any religion, but continued on a path I perceived to be growth-oriented for my body, mind and spirit. Each step of the way I required, no, I DEMANDED proof that the knowledge I was receiving had validity. That it was not just some spiritual mumbo jumbo garbage that someone wanted me to believe, but that I experienced Truth. I had to validate everything. I could not accept anything based upon someone else's opinion.

And today, I continue to question my truths, to ensure that they still maintain their validity. I continue to test myself, to ensure that I continue to LIVE my truth. If I reach a point where I no longer do that, then my truth is no longer certain, and must be reevaluated. This, however, is not deception. This is awareness; consciousness; choice.

Mind you, Master Baggins, that while I am a baptized Christian, I still consider myself a Fusionist. That is one of the reasons I can be so sure about my Way. My Way is the Way of all the Masters, for I incorporate ALL the Ways in mine. CYA of a sort, I suppose, although that is not my intent. It is more like cover all spiritual bases and do not miss out on any part of the truth. Oh look, here is some more! *sip*

Surety is in my heart. I cannot force another to see what I see, know what I know. I can only LIVE my truth and walk my path with honor and with Love in my heart. I can only maintain my vigilance through my own clarity and consciousness, to remain aware of changes that need to be made to ensure I am indeed not deceived.

*Sleep, Jon, I know you are probably sleeping . . . I will make the tea for the Cosmic Clan. Decaf it is . . . . Bodhiboy, won't you have a sip?*

Answer 8

There is absolute experience that's apart from symbology. There is reading about riding on a roller coaster and then there’s actually riding the roller coaster. The God in the Old Testament was asked by what name should it be called. It said, “I am what I Am.” It knew the symbology of even a name creates deception. Definition of a thing limits that thing to that definition, another deception. Even if I ask your name the answer will be a deception because I’ll probably put your name through a filter of ethnic and cultural generalities and make general assumptions based on the symbol of your name even if I make efforts not to.

Truth is only available by experience.

Every symbol whether written or oral is a representation of something and not the truth of the thing.

There is no way to experience truth vicariously.

We all have much to learn from Buddha contemplating a flower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh-1JVctSOY
♥Blessed Be♥
♥=∞

Answer 9

perhaps we cant and thats the attraction? if we had certainty 100% proof there would still be those who doute or even think their way is the right way. Faith, albeit in a religion, a foot ball team or ones self, is just that.. a strong belief, a loyalty, allegiance to something either more powerfull than our selves or important to our own self identity.. Some sort of possitive destiny... and yes with faith can come deception, but is that not the gamble we take by just life its self?

Answer 10

For many years I had an insatiable longing to know "the truth", or "who, what am I?" I was filled with questions!!!

Now, there are no more "life" questions or "hereafter" questions. I mostly just enjoy the "banter" here on Y!A and elsewhere...more for the fun of it than anything else.

I throw out questions and even attend the occasional satsang, but just to be in the company of very interesting people...like you! There is no more hoping for mystical experiences, or meeting that one great teacher, etc. All the 'spiritual' pursuits have left me.

My life has continued on, as always, getting older. a few more aches and pains...family "issues", etc. The great thing...that nagging, longing is no more! Yes!

I am an extrovert and love the interaction I have with others. I travel a lot (for business purposes) and spend much of my time in hotels. "The road warrior" life can be very solitary. My laptop and you folks are my connection to cyberspace satsang! :)

The seeming thousands of questions I have asked have boiled down to a couple of curious statements that, I think, say it all. "You are here, aren't you (?)...wherever you go...you are here!" And, "Be with 'WHAT IS".

These words may not mean much to some, but to me they add up to 'peace'.

So, no I am not deceived. The kind of longing, searching, nagging questions that caused me so much suffering, is gone. There is "Proof in the pudding!".