Mormons, I have a question about the plates......?

Question

So, I have a question about Joseph Smith and the plates. Ok, so he dug up the plates along with the urium and thummin to translate. He put his face TIGHTLY against a hat and used the stones to translate the book of mormon. So, since he obviously did not use the plates to translate...what was the purpose of them? Big plates along with stones don't fit in a small hat.
That is a fact by the way, it is written in the church history along with a first account by the whitmer guy.

Also, does anyone know about when Joseph Smith was accused of fraud in 1827(before the book of mormon) for telling people he had magic stones that would tell him where to find gold? One more thing. Smith shot and killed 2 people with a smuggled gun, then tried to jump out of the window to avoid being caught. Doesn't sound very christian like to me? Not saying mormon people lie about it....but from my experience they try to hide it a little bit. Why?

meh, its not a bad religion. As far as christianity goes its without a doubt the most honest and christian.

Just had some real questions about things.
Don't badmouth the religion...especially if you think they are polygamists...idiots.

the question was for MORMONS. I wanted answers not rumors.....thx anyways though.

Answer 1

Joseph Smith did a good part of the translation by trying to read the plates directly and hope for guidance from God. He rarely used the Urim and Thummim after the early days of the translation process, as they were large and unwieldy. Later, when he did use the seer stone, he had his face inside the hat to see the stones more clearly. It was a pretty large hat, and he had to stick his head in pretty far to block out the light.

Joseph Smith was accused and held on many varying charges over the course of his life, yet was never convicted of any crimes.

In 1844, Joseph Smith was wanted on charges of inciting a riot and treason, ironically for trying to stop mob action againt the owners of a newspaper. He had the option to flee to another state, even thought about it, but instead turned himself in to authorities a day later.
While in the jail, the jailer knew he was no threat and allowed him to stay upstairs in a safer area. The jailer also implicitly allowed Joseph to arm himself in the jail so that he could defend himself against a mob of 300 disbanded militia outside the jail. The governor posted 50 men outside the jail to protect Joseph Smith, but the militia got past them.
After the militia shot through the closed door, killed his visiting brother Hyrum Smith, Joseph stood and fired three bullets back through the closed door in self-defense, killing three people (two by some accounts).
When it became apparent that they only wanted his life, Joseph visibly stood in their view to draw their fire and ran to the window. He was shot twice in the back and twice in the chest, when he then leapt from the window. As he crawled along the ground, another assailant shot him several more times in the back, delivering the fatal shots.

Christians are entitled to self defense. If you read the figurative interpretation of "turn the other cheek" and thoroughly read the book of Daniel, you'll see some precedent.
I don't think anyone tries to hide his death, but what is there to be gained? It's an awkward conversation starter:
"Yeah, in 1844, the founder of our church was gunned down by a fugitive militia unit, of which someone tried to behead him post-mortem. This happened 10 years after his infant child was thrown out into the cold by an anti-Mormon mob, dying of disease 5 days later. How's Luann and the kids?"

Also, I think that your sources severely distort the truth. I list a few other neutral sources below, and one LDS think tank at the bottom.

EDIT:
Thank you for asking a legitimate question, not just one to bash our faith.

Answer 2

My understanding is that he held the stones over the plates and the "english" letters would appear to him, so therefore he needed the plates for the translation...I don't think anyone really knows for 100% sure how it happened other than Joseph and the Lord. Even the account of David Whitmer could have been a little mis-interpreted by others. Anyways, it shouldn't matter too much, the point is they were translated by the power of God, whether in a hat or in the bath tub, makes no matter to me.
Joseph Smith was accused MANY times for anything someone could come up with...didn't matter what it was, the people were afraid of him and constantly trying to get him convicted of something. To be accused and to be convicted are two different things - he was never convicted of any crime but falsely imprisoned many times.
When Joseph (any Hyrum) were killed, there was a mob I think it was around 200? that number may be incorrect...but anyways, the mob went to the jail with one purpose: to kill the Prophet Joseph. And yes, I believe all 4 men in the jail with Joseph had guns...think about it - if you were being shot or knew you were "going to the slaughter like a lamb" would you not want to protect yourself? I definitly would be shooting back to save my own life. And I would probably jump out a window to avoid being murdered! Doesn't sound very Christian - no those murderers were not very Christian. Joseph, in my opinion, was a great man, truly a man of God. I believe he was chosen of the Lord before this world was even formed, to be the prophet of the restoration and that Joseph had his calling and election made sure...that he will most definitly gain exalatation in the Celestial Kingdom. One day I hope to thank him for all he did.

Answer 3

I'll just add that you have to take with a grain of salt some of the contradictory things you hear about the church. I don't think you'll find out the truth until you read the Book of Mormon and pray about it. Simple as that. When you know the Book of Mormon is true, and you know Joseph Smith was a prophet, the history begins to fall into perspective. We don't know all the answers, either. But what we do know, we know, and no amount of rumors, half-truths, self-serving misrepresentations, envy, malice, or lies will change that.

By the way, interesting question about the plates. I wonder how many times previous writings were simply revealed, and how many times the existence of previous writings, or gold plates, helped with weak faith. God doesn't need to do a lot of things in the historical manner, or as a scholar might. We have copies of copies of the Bible, handed down from generation to generation. Yet no doubt God could just dictate it all over again to a modern man, if God wanted to do that. But somehow having the ancient manuscripts helps our fledgling faith.

Answer 4

I notice that in the testimony of the eight witnesses to The Book of Mormon, the men stated that the plates had the "appearance of gold." The pure plates you cite were not the Book of Mormon plates, but one source from which the abridgment was made.

Answer 5

I'm not sure why the plates were necessary, but I can offer my opinion. God could have just revealed word for word the Book of Mormon to Joseph. God could have even had Moroni write it on paper in English probably. But through the process Joseph, Oliver, Martin, Emma, David were able to grow and understand the gospel better. Having the actual plates probably helped increase their faith.

I'm not familiar with the fraud claim you are talking about. But I do know that Joseph saw the plates and the Urim and Thummim in 1823. Maybe he was telling someone about it and they misunderstood him or something.

I've also never heard that version of his death. I've only heard about how the jail was surrounded by a mob of couple hundred men. Some had forced their way into the jail and were trying to get in the room. Joseph was hit from both the window and the door and fell out the window.

Here are a few articles I found on the translation process.

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=21bc9fbee98db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=5250e07368d9b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=5a921f26d596b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=05169209df38b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

Answer 6

Actually, no one really knows exactly how he used the Urum and Thummim, from what I understand, because he was ALWAYS behind a screen when he actually translated.

As for the hat, what I heard was that the stones would glow when they were working, and when he wasn't sure if they were working, he would put them into a leather hat and push his face in, creating complete darkness, so he could see if the stones were still glowing even slightly.

Answer 7

In regard to the Plates and the Urim and Thummim, Joseph was shown where the plates and the Urim and Thummim were buried along with a few other items together. The Urim and Thummim is not a hat and they are not huge stones either. They are 2 small, round, and clear stones that he looked through, like glasses, that he used to translate the ancient writing and characters upon the plates (they are also called "seer stones"). And these stones fit upon a breast plate that has a different type of stone for each of the 12 Tribes of Israel. There's more info about the Urim and Thummim in the Bible (Ex. 25 & 28; Lev. 8, etc...). Moses and Aaron used them as well as others. They were buried together and were small enough to fit.

As far as the first time he was charge with fraud, I don't know when it was. I'd have to look it up. But, it doesn't really matter. People have been after him ever since he had his First Vision when he was 12 years old.

He didn't use the Urim and Thummim to find gold. That's a myth.

As for the part of him shooting and killing the 2 men... Consider the circumstances and situation. He was jailed for more false charges (the other times he was charged, he was released because the charges were not true - try going to jail over and over for no reason) and the mobs were not planning to let him leave the jail alive. He was in the jail with his brother, Hyrum, and a few other men. The mobs surrounded the jail shooting through the window and other mob members pushing their way up the stairs trying to force their way through the door, shooting through the crack in the door. They shot and killed his brother and wounded another. Joseph knew that they only cared about killing him. He knew even before going to jail that if he was to go that he would not return alive, but went anyways, his brother willingly going with him. A few men were shot and killed trying to protect those in the jail with them (and if I remember right, I think he got the gun from one of the jailers). What would you do in that situation if your mother or someone you loved was in there with you? You would defend yourself and protect them as best as you could. Joseph did not seek the death of others. Since the mob were mainly after Joseph and didn't really care about the others in the jail (as long as they killed Joseph), Joseph jumped from the window. I think to draw the attention away from his friends in the jail. Because, no sooner had he jumped, yells from mob members came saying that Joseph jumped from the window and those trying to fight through the jail door ran outside leaving Joseph's friends safe. Hyrum died before he jumped (he was shot in the face. If Joseph was a coward, I think that he would have put his "so-called" friends in front of him to take the shots for him and would have been the last person to die. But, we know this didn't happen. If he was only thinking of himself, why would he jump out the window where he knew a mob was waiting for him with guns, shooting through the window at the same time? I believe that he sacrificed himself to save the life of his friends in the jail, one of them later becoming a leader of the Church. I think it took courage and a great love for those with him. And I think any of us, put in that same condition, may do the same thing.
It's easy to pick pieces out and twist things to make something look bad, especially if hearing it from other people. We can do that with anything. Look at what we do with rumors. But, we need to look at the whole picture and think outside the box. There are things that God has done that doesn't seem to make sense. But, when we look into it more and more, it starts to make sense.

Answer 8

The gold plates never existed. It was solely a ruse to promote a 'book' he was trying to generate interest in that was poorly written and copied copiously from the KJV Bible (errors and all), plot devises from other American authors, 19th century theories on the origins of the Indians, and a simple 2-dimensional morality play about how god rewards the good with riches and prosperity and those who reject god are cursed with idolatry, ungodliness and a dark skin.

The plates could not have been hefted as easily or casually as described, and no one actually "saw" the plates and engravings - the book (or brick) was always covered, and Joseph described the object as something only 'spiritual eyes' could behold. In other words, Smith sold a bill of goods with a crock of sh!t as payment.

The Egyptian Papyri is an even more transparent case of blatant fraud and overt dishonesty. I really wish Smith had never been killed by the mob, but ultimately brought up on criminal charges for lewd and licentious behavior. The church would no longer exist, and Utah would be the 'final frontier'. Or at least, un-irrigated..

Answer 9

They tried to hide that the "marriage in heaven" doctrine and the three heavens doctrine was from the "Universal Theology of the New Jerusalem" by Emanuel Swedenborg, that Joseph Smith heavily borrowed from. See Conjugal Love or Marriage Love by Swedenborg.

It seems like he borrowed "planets in the spiritual world" from Swedenborg too. See "Earths in the Universe" by Swedenborg.

Also, they hide that Joseph Smith created a tiered religion with different "levels" of understanding like the masons and that he was probably a mason or at least borrowed the tier religion system from the masons.

Answer 10

Joseph Smith was on trial for being a traitor but never saw trial