About the creationism debate: do you believe there is a conscious will (not necessarily God) at the....?.?

Question

...foundation of the universe or is all that is due to chance alone? The latter seems so illogical, un-intuitive to me.

For "wallyworld";

"Man (human kind") is the measure of all things." because he/she is all we know that exists with a rational consciousness. To say that our minds are emergent properties of an otherwise unconscious material universe is to say that there is an effect (result) without a cause. Some scientist s do say this. Since there is no other effect without a cause to my knowledge in the universe (and my human consciousness is the measure) I question that there is no other consciousness greater than mine.

Please respond with an edit.

Wrong! The universe "choosing order over chaos" implies the universe is conscious, which, I believe, it may very well be. But the energy of the world is a constant and the entropy (thermodynamic measure of disorder in a closed system) of the universe is ever increasing (strebt ein maximum zu) so the "conscious preference" for the matter in the universe must be for it to be disordered. The universe is,I think, a closed system. It takes more energy to form an ordered human than a chaotic assembly of his/her elements It may very well be that it takes a conscious will to impose order on the universe out of chaos but this requires work. The capacity to do the work of ordering decreases with increase of entropy. The matter in the universe is thermodynamically deteriorating toward a state of inert chaotic uniformity. We, if human consciousness is all the consciousness there is, had better find an answer to it all before entropy hits its peak. But let us hope there is a higher consciousness,

The above, undesignated edit, was for "efriem".

Answer 1

Consider how many past religions have formed around this principle - that there must be some great power who "wanted" to create the universe. Obviously, most if not all of these religions are wrong. Remember that we are limited by the constraints of human logic and understanding. We try to put a human face to many things, creationism included, to have the concept "make sense" to us. But just because it satisfies our logic, does not make it ultimately true.

Edit:
You rationalize that consciousness must come from another consciousness, which is a reasonable point. After all, you can't spontaneously create anything, whether it's a baby or a chemical compound, without a similar predecessor. But who is to say that this consciousness has to be greater than us? What if it is an equal or lesser consciousness? Why can't it be a series of consciousness that traces from amino acids to bacteria to primates?
There really is no evidence for this supposedly greater consciousness, beyond humankind's own interpretations. Can the parameters of human consciousness/understanding reveal the truths? Scientifically, I believe so. But philosophically and spiritually, I really really don't know. You believe it can and support it with something reasonable, but I just find these things too difficult without concrete evidence.

Answer 2

Absolutely not.

The only thing out there is the universe itself and it functions according to it's own set of laws. We are currently attempting to find out what all of those laws are and the specifics of them.

The idea that there is intelligence backing the universe and that it had a beginning is total hogwash... The universe is the ultimate infinity both in it's vastness and it's lifespan. It is as it is said of gods, never ending and without beginning, forever and ever, A effing men.

If one had the ability to gather up all that the universe includes, it would still, nonetheless, be there by definition - everything must be somewhere and that somewhere is our universe. It cannot be emptied nor filled to overflowing. It can only continue on and on infinitely and ever-changing.

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Answer 3

Yes, there is most definitely a consciousness or spiritual power behind the scenes. To think everything happened at random defies common sense. It would be more plausible to correctly guess the number of grains of sand on a beach than for life to have began by happenstance.

Answer 4

Those aren't the only two possibilities.

How is the belief that the universe or which ever reality it stems from, has existed for ever 'illogical',

but the belief that some invisible magical giant sky fairy 'whisped' everything into existence without reason, is 'logical' and 'intuitive'?

Answer 5

Actually it doesn't at all. The universe will always choose order over chaos because order uses less energy.

Answer 6

At the foundation of the Universe? Yes
At the foundation of the Earth? No

Answer 7

yes and it is necessarily God