Jehovah's Witnesses: What EXACTLY is "Theocratic Warfare"? How does it differ from "perjury" in court?

Question

I was watching the following video link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2O4lbgX81U

Some of the lies I was easily able to identify in the video:

The elder states family members expelled from JW congregations are not treated differently by the family.

He states JWs do not disdain disfellowshipped members or consider them all wicked and demonic.

He states JWs are allowed to speak to disfellowshipped members.

He states JWs do not use the word "shun" to describe DF/DA.

He states the WT did not publish a child custody brochure.

He states JWs say hello to disfellowshipped members they encounter.

I KNOW FOR A FACT these are outright lies. My parents have been JWs for more than 35 years. Believe me, I KNOW what they believe.

So, my question is: How is this elder's testimony not perjury/outright lying? Doesn't the Bible say that God HATES a lie but that Satan is the "Father of lies"? How should people viewing this video reconcile this?

Troll: LOL. Is that some kind of record? I was getting incredulous.

Seasoned: No idea what someone said here 8 months ago. I joined this forum in April. Guess the lies are just apparent to those who know better. The elder is a flat-out LIAR and my own family is PROOF. So is my copy of the "Pay Attention" elders manual. I know what I've lived and have nothing to lose or gain by not telling the truth. Unlike many here, I will not protect a lying and murderous org., that breaks up families, bottom line. The WT teaches that all DF and apostates are under the control of Satan, so while not necessarily using "demonic" in all instances, it still equates.

Alice: yes we are in a spiritual warfare and the Word of God is the sword that cuts to the truth.

Ohio: correct. A lot of semantics but the same facts. I noticed that elder latched on to the term custody "packet" to skirt the truth, because while it may not be a packet, it is a brochure the WTS did, in fact, produce.

PROOF IRREFUTABLE that there IS INDEED a Child Custody packet put out by the JW org. I have the Watch Tower Library 2006 CD. Here is a direct reference to the existance of said packet , in their own literature: “In the United States, the Society’s Legal Department makes available to those Kingdom publishers facing a child-custody case a packet of information containing favorable legal decisions and suggestions on trial techniques. The packet has been instrumental in helping some publishers who faced divorce action from opposing mates to retain the custody of their children.”

1988 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses, pp. 28-29

NOW, tell me the elder didn't lie???

Carol, thanks so much for sharing. My parents actually led me on a high-speed chase through the country because they didn't want to stop and talk to me when I ran into them. The elder's claim that JW would stop to help DF family with a flat tire . . . . .HA! Not my parents--they are such devout JWs and know better.

Achtung: Thanks for the direct source. In light of this info., I submit:
1. The elder must not be a "true Christian". He was NOT under persecution (as the 2 Cor. 4 passage denotes), nor being asked to betray a brother, (WWII comparison not withstanding).
2. The elder did not heed this WT policy that says NOT to tell a falsehood under oath. He DID lie. The WT, in fact, commands that followers "MUST utter truth".
3. The courts ARE "entitled" to be told the truth in a court case. Their PURPOSE is to get to the bottom of a matter. This is not possible if they have to sift thru lies.
4. Jesus also said we ARE to submit to the law (MT 22:21)
5. The courts are NOT "God's foe". Even the WT says human government is allowed by God and is to be obeyed.
6. You gave half a quote: we should be "cautious as serpents, but INNOCENT as doves".
7. Do you imply, with this use of 2 Cor. 10: 3,4, that the "weapon God empowers us to use is LYING??? When God repeated says He HATES a lie?

Answer 1

ATTA Girl!
Here are a few quotes from the September 15, 1981 Watchtower article "Disfellowshipping, How to View It":

"3 In the first century C.E. the Jews under Roman rule did not have the authority to administer the death penalty. (John 18:28-31) But a Jew guilty of violating the Law could be expelled from the synagogue. An effect of this severe punishment was that other Jews would shun or avoid the expelled person. It is said that others would not even have commercial transactions with him beyond selling him the necessities of life.—John 9:22; 12:42; 16:2."

LOYAL TO GOD’S VIEW

28 Loyalty to Jehovah God and his provisions is a source of happiness, for all his ways are righteous, just and good. This is true, too, concerning his provision to disfellowship unrepentant wrongdoers. As we cooperate with that arrangement, we can trust in David’s words: “Take knowledge that Jehovah will certainly distinguish his loyal one.” (Ps. 4:3) Yes, God sets apart, honors and guides those who are loyal to him and his ways. Among the many blessings we receive from such loyalty is the joy of being among those whom God approves and accepts ‘in his holy mountain.’—Ps. 84:10, 11.

DO YOU RECALL THESE POINTS?

When Jews were expelled from the synagogue, how were they treated?

Paul showed what difference in treating

(1) immoral persons in the world?

(2) immoral persons disfellowshiped from the congregation?

How should Christians view a person who disassociates himself from the congregation?

“Disfellowshiping” implies the terminating of what kinds of fellowship?

Why do Christians not greet or speak with disfellowshiped persons?

With regard to disfellowshiping, what do we need to do to remain ‘in God’s holy mountain’?

[Footnotes]

“Henceforth he was like one dead. He was not allowed to study with others, no [social] intercourse was to be held with him, he was not even to be shown the road. He might, indeed, buy the necessaries of life, but it was forbidden to eat or drink with such an one.”—The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, by A. Edersheim, Vol. II, p. 184.

In line with this Bible teaching, Adam Clarke highlights the difference, stating: “Have no communion with [an expelled sinner] in things sacred or civil. You may transact your worldly concerns with a person that knows not God, and makes no profession of Christianity, whatever his moral character may be; but, ye must not even thus far acknowledge a man professing Christianity, who is scandalous in his conduct. Let him have this extra mark of your abhorrence of all sin.”

Ecclesiastical historian Joseph Bingham writes concerning the early centuries: “The discipline of the church consisted in a power to deprive men of all the benefits and privileges of baptism, by turning them out of the society and communion of the church, . . . and every one shunned and avoided them in common conversation, partly to establish the church’s censures and proceedings against them, and partly to make them ashamed, and partly to secure themselves from the danger of contagion.” “ . . . no one was to receive excommunicated persons into their houses, nor eat at the same table with them; they were not to converse with them familiarly, whilst living; nor perform the funeral obsequies for them, when dead, . . . These directions were drawn up upon the model of those rules of the apostles, which forbade Christians to give any countenance to notorious offenders.”—The Antiquities of the Christian Church, pp. 880, 891.

Our issue of September 1, 1981, discussed 2 Thessalonians 3:14, 15, where the Bible says that it might be necessary to ‘mark’ a Christian who persists in disorderly conduct. He is still a brother and to be admonished as such, but other Christians are to “stop associating with him.” If they should avoid his company on a social basis, much clearer separation should exist in the cases of disfellowshiped or disassociated wrongdoers.

...
Sooooo.... Whadya think?

Edit:
Oh, and when I was dealing with a custory fight with my "worldly" husband, they gave me that package. I turned it over to my lawyer. It TOTALLY EXISTS! If I needed it, I could just go back to that lawyer.
Suzanne

Answer 2

You raise vitally important issues which the public are kept in the dark about. There absolutely IS a Wt.Soc publication called 'Preparing for Child Custody Cases' but only for the eyes of JW elders and attorneys. I had occasion to send to a UK Solicitor a book that explained how the JWs use the information in that Wt.Soc booklet to deceive Courts, in order to have JW parents get custody of children. I am shocked if a JW elder publicly lied about the existence of this booklet.

The statements about JW treatment / views of disfellowshipped members is disgraceful. I have an ex-JW neighbour who politely greets a JW neighbour every time he sees him, yet the JW ignores him. Why? Because the ex JW's WIFE left the JWs for doctrinal reasons and speaks publicly about that! Charming!

There is an ex-JW couple who were shunned for quarter of a century by close JW relatives living nearby. But when the sons' JW mother became frail and needed regular visits, the JWs phoned the exJWs to organize a rota! Some years of sharing care later, the JW lady died, and after the funeral all contact was stopped - by the JWs! When they rarely bumped into the ex-JWs they would say hello and have a little chat, but I think I know hypocricy when I see it.

Of course they don't use the word 'shun' to describe DFs! They're not silly! That would be like publicly stating they send people to Coventry. Only, shunning tactics are far nastier than that. I have Wt.Soc literature here that spells out what JWs must not do. None of these instructions have been withdrawn, as far as I know. Of course, for JWs to admit that they have, would be to admit that they once held good! No wonder the Wt.Soc is now going to do a special edition of The Watchtower for the public, and another one for JWs!!!

This 'theocratic warfare' also runs to encouraging JWs who have to respect patient/client confidentiality as a condition of their employment, to grass on JWs to elders (eg re. medical treatments received in hospital.) Again, I have the Watchtower article by me. Space does not permit full quotes. This subject requires a book! Keep plugging it!

Answer 3

Family members are not treated differently:
SO NOT TRUE
When I visited my parents recently, my father was drinking coffee early in the morning, my mother was in the kitchen. I poured myself a cup of coffee and sat down with my father. My mother immediately gave my dad "that look" and my father got up from his undrunk half cup of coffee and went into the living room. When I noticed what had happened. I gave my mom "that look" then got up and told my dad that he was free to return to the table which he did. Mom said, you know we can't eat/drink with you.
After my brother's funeral, my youngest older brother would not eat while I was still eating even though there were dozens of other people eating at the same time.

JW's do not disdain disfellowshipped members/consider them wicked/demonic.
Just try reading some of the posts here from active JW against D/F and D/A members. You'd think we are spawn of the devil (which I think I remember actually reading). We are called apostate, followers of satan (isn't that demonic???), pursuers of fleshly desires (wicked????? sound like it to me), slanderers, etc etc. If that's not disdain I don't know what is.
JW are allowed to speak to disfellowshipped members.
Allowed is such a vague word. JW's are encouraged NOT to associate with D/F D/A people. It is might hard to speak to someone and NOT be associating with them.
Elders ARE allowed to speak to them: to encourage them to return to the fold.

JW's use the word "shun" and "excommunicate" to correlate the meaning of disfellowshipping. It makes people understand the JW term, and although within the inner cirlce they do not use that term, those 3 words can be and are interchangeable. So, I don't know what the semantic games are all about.

I have never seen a "brochure" about cild custody. HOWEVER I have read "confidential" elder information regarding assisting bro/sis during custody cases to help them keep the children within the clutches of the organization.

Perjury: any known untruth or misinformation, or not fully telling the truth WHILE UNDER OATH. Sounds familiar huh???

There is NO reconciling the truth with a lie. Period, end of sentence.

Answer 4

I am also kind of shocked at the ought right lying and deceit the the WBTS, and some Witnesses will do on this forum....When I was a Witness...you could not lie for any reason whatsoever, for any reason.

Of course the backlash will be name calling and questions about why we don't have a LIFE.....But rarely do we get a straight out answer without blaming from the Witnesses in this forum...Just my observation.


P.S. If Witnesses are able to have contact with Disfellowshipped family, then why do my 3 grown children, have no relationship with their aunts, uncles and grandparents........2 of my children have never even met my side of the family........such a loss......Not only am I shunned, but so are my children, and I came from a large family.


BRAVO Suzanne...I predict it raining thumbs down on you>

Answer 5

Let's examine this one by one.

"The elder states family members expelled from JW congregations are not treated differently by the family."

True! My sister is still my sister even if she is disfellowshipped.

"He states JWs do not disdain disfellowshipped members or consider them all wicked and demonic."

Also true. They are not demonic. They HAVE comitted something serious that requires correction.

"He states JWs are allowed to speak to disfellowshipped members."

Once again true. We certainly can speak to them.

"He states JWs do not use the word "shun" to describe DF/DA. "

I never have used the word "shun" in connection with disfellowshipped individuals. Amish shun. Jehovah's Witnesses are not Amish.

"He states the WT did not publish a child custody brochure."

I can't say I have ever seen such a brochure.
This is a slightly different item isn't it? Not quite the same thing.

"PROOF IRREFUTABLE that there IS INDEED a Child Custody packet put out by the JW org. I have the Watch Tower Library 2006 CD. Here is a direct reference to the existance of said packet , in their own literature: “In the United States, the Society’s Legal Department makes available to those Kingdom publishers facing a child-custody case a packet of information containing favorable legal decisions and suggestions on trial techniques. The packet has been instrumental in helping some publishers who faced divorce action from opposing mates to retain the custody of their children."

I never said that this material wasn't availible. However that does NOT equate to a "brochure" and does not mean it is published by Jehovah's Witnesses. I have seen similar packets availible in my attorney's office covering many legal subjects.


"He states JWs say hello to disfellowshipped members they encounter"

Your problem with this is what? I have seen such done. I have done so myself. So what?

"How is this elder's testimony not perjury/outright lying?"

Where did he lie? Where's the purjury?

With due respect, how can you be sure the video is what it claims to be? I've seen it and was unimpressed.
Video cameras are not routinely permitted in courtrooms, in my experience. Even cell phones are to be turned off.

Answer 6

excellent comparision theocratic warfare=perjury.

The Watchtower used this term regularly in the 1950's, but does not seem to have used it since the 1980's.

In a similar vein a JW is expected to break the law of the land in order to "dob in" any Witness that does not follow Watchtower laws.
• “Employers have a right to expect that their Christian employees will ‘exhibit good fidelity to the full,’ including observing rules on confidentiality…. There may be occasions when a faithful servant of God is motivated by his personal convictions, based on his knowledge of God’s Word, to strain or even breach the requirements of confidentiality because of the superior demands of divine law. Courage and discretion would be needed. The objective would not be to spy on another’s freedom but to help erring ones and to keep the Christian congregation clean.” Watchtower 1987 Sep. 1 p.15

Answer 7

11 hours and no answers, I have seen a couple of Questions go a few hours as of late that were not religious or spiritual.

but not one in regards to the JWs.
_____

Theocratic Warfare - Ephesians 6:12

(KJV) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

(NWT)
because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.
-
Of course it is the WTB&TS against all other "religions" and governments.

This is something the JWs strongly and effectively use to "group" their following. Along with:

Luke 21:12
(RSV)
But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake.
-

All other religion or denominations are false - These are the "Synagogue of Satan" according to WTB&TS.
___
*Note* Ephesians 6:12 is accurately translated "heavenly" rather than "high" in the NWT.
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=2032

existing in heaven

a) things that take place in heaven

b) the heavenly regions

1) heaven itself, the abode of God and angels

2) the lower heavens, of the stars

3) the heavens, of the clouds

c) the heavenly temple or sanctuary

2) of heavenly origin or nature
_____

A JW, a non JW, and an exJW will all see what the witness said differently.
____

Shun-

To avoid, keep away from, rebuff, snub, spurn, stay or steer clear of.

This is a deliberate act of avoiding association with, and keeping away from a person.

So what do the JWs call shun is not one of these:
avoid, bilk, cold-shoulder*, cut, cut dead, decline, despise, disdain, ditch*, dodge, double, duck, elude, escape, eschew, evade, get around, hide out, ignore, neglect, palm off*, pass up, refuse, reject, scorn, shake, shake off, shy, snub, stall

Answer 8

Excellent points! Unfortunately, you and I both know you will either get no answers (avoidance) or they will call you an apostate (scare tactic). Notice how quickly the PO claimed "apostate" info when it wasn't saying what he wanted it to? And it was from their own literature! Yes, things have changed somewhat since 1952, but the facts are the facts. Call it what you want, it's all the same.

Answer 9

Jesus said the 'liars were in kinship with the devil' Rev.21:8
When Jehovah's Witnesses lie they call it "theocratic warfare" their dogma holds that it's o-kay to lie to non members who as they say,.."don't deserve to know the truth"

Interesting,in fact it is shocking that the Moonies call their disinformation protocol "heavenly deception" WOW we have "theocratic (God in heaven) warfare and "heavenly deception" both evasion subterfuges by groups that deny they are religious cults.

Answer 10

(I noticed that you copied and pasted your "points" from comments someone else posted 8 months ago on You Tube on the 4th page under this video!)

The elder's description of the practice of disfellowshipping was correct.

The Biblical practice of disfellowshipping is a congregational matter and doesn't alter family relationships.

We do not consider disfellowshipped ones to be "demonic" or "wicked." They are being disciplined by Jehovah God, evidence of Jehovah's love for them. Hebrews 12:6 says, "for whom Jehovah loves he disciplines." The goal of disfellowshipping is to cause the wrong-doer to repent while at the same time protecting the congregation from unwholesome influences.

Unrepentant wrong-doers are "disfellowshipped" meaning we are not to socialize with them. This does not mean that we are not to show good manners. (excuse me, thank you, etc.)

It seems that, contrary to your claim, you do not 'know what Jehovah's Witnesses believe' or else (more likely) you have deliberately distorted the truth to fulfill your own agenda of slandering Jehovah's Witnesses.


AliceAngel: We speak of our "spiritual warfare" not as a "code," but in reference to Paul's words at Ephesians 6:11-13:

"Put on the complete suit of armor from God that you may be able to stand firm against the machinations of the Devil; because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places. On this account take up the complete suit of armor from God, that you may be able to resist in the wicked day and, after you have done all things thoroughly, to stand firm."