Debate over free will Muslim vs Christian?

Question

Me (a muslim) and a christian friend debated the matter over the concept of free will.

He says that we have total free will and that God granted us that but He has no control over it.

I said the same but that God does have control over it, to that if God did not wish something then we as humans with our free will would never attain what God does not want...

He said the a human can do things God does not want, but that God allows.. which i found contradictory..

i said that humans can choose but that the outcome and the choice has already been known by God and he finds that contradictory...

Which of us do you agree with?

NOTE: "i believe" he has already asked a question about this..
please no being rude or insulting to him first, to our religions, and to me...

be respectful and answer with honesty and politeness

the difference in simple form is that... he says free will means you can do things God may have not wanted... i say that NO, you can't do things unless God permits it.. good things or bad..

oh yeah.. for some.. want here is not want as prefered.. but want as in allowed

i did not say that we are not responsible for our actions, what i said is that we DO HAVE free will, but that nothing we do is not seen and forseen by God.... and if God did not allow us to do it we would not have done it..

Answer 1

So you are the other half of the debate. It sounds like you two are doing it respectively. Please see my answer to his question.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AoKEAXZYs0blI5NDArIdS_7sy6IX?qid=20070816124617AAmy1JU&show=7#profile-info-056a1d58c31a7773983990a0f6f88fa9aa

Answer 2

I have read both question and think you two are not understanding each other very well. God allows sin for a time or man would not sin. Your friend does not say God has no control over a man's free will but that God allows a man to sin. Clearly men do sin therefore free will allows us to sin or to choose God. There is a day of Judgement in which a Muslim should agree. This time on earth is a time of free will choice. God does not make a man choose him nor does he prevent a man from choosing sin. This is your free will choice.
not exactly this simple is the fact that all men do choose to sin.
The choice now is to accept salvation from sin or to pay the penalty yourself. This is very sad for those who choose to pay the penalty themselves as God is perfect and righteous and the wages of sin is death but in God's mercy is the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ.

Answer 3

I agree with your Christian friend. I will give you the same reply I gave him.
God grants everyone free will. If God controlled our will, then what are we doing here? So, does that mean your Muslim friend thinks we are all puppets being controlled by God? God does not control our choices. If he did, then everyone would have the same faith, we would all believe in God. This is, however, far from the truth. Basically we would all be the same. There would be no diversity with respect to God and religion. So, yes you are right.
Furthermore, God wants to see if we can make the right choices on our own. Yes he gives us guidance, but you cannot equate guidance with control.

Answer 4

Gods purpose will happen. But man has free will to disobey God. This is against Gods purpose. But God works around our disobedience. When someone murders someone, then God has a place for the soul of the victim. When the murderer dies, then God has a place for the soul of the murderer.

God doesn't choose our choices. God has chosen to allow us to choose to believe or not believe in God. And to choose to sin or not. We reap what we sow. And that makes each of us different & unique individuals. Because there are conscequences to our actions. I believe we are more interesting to God this way.

Sin is disobeying Gods Word or rebelling against Gods Word. The wages of sin is death & everyone physically dies. Because everyone sins (goes against Gods purpose) somewhere or somehow.

Obviously people do things God doesn't want them to do. All the time people sin. But, all things work for the good for those who trust in God. What the devil meant for destruction, God can turn for good.


God has a certain amount of control, & Gods ultimate purpose will come to pass. God Is in control. Because when you look at the full picture, when hurt is all around, look up. God is in control & things will turn out for the good for those who trust in the Lord.

Answer 5

Well, like I told the other guy, if it is true that we don't have free will, then you can't complain about people who don't follow Islam like you do. After all, they were "predestined" to believe the way they do, or not believe anything at all, for that matter.

In other words, you can not go around trying to convert people to Islam unless you are firmly convinced that they truly have the freedom to choose and to change their minds.

You can NOT have it both ways. Either you accept people as they are, because they are merely fulfilling the way God determined them to be like, and you leave them completely alone; or you accept that people DO have free will.

There is no debate - for instance, if I am predestined to believe in free will, then who are you to say I'm wrong, since that is what I was predestined to believe?

Likewise (in the same manner), if I am predestined to disagree with the muslem beliefs, then that is the way God designed me, and to try to convert or stop me is going against the very will of God, Himself!

Answer 6

I too think that Gad allows things He doesn´t approve, just because people wanted to act that way. He is ulimately above all and in control of it all, so if He chooses He can stop that action or He may not. We, as humans, have to confront the consequenses of our wrong actions. I think... it comes from the Bible, that even though a christians he forgives us our mistakes and loves us too, he also corrects us whe we make mistakes. Because He loves us.

Answer 7

Well, in a way you are both correct. God does know the outcome and God does allow it to happen. We don't know the outcome and some people don't believe in God, so to us, it is a choice.

Answer 8

I agree with you overall but you're kind of getting into semantics with this one.

I agree when he says God sometimes allows things he doesn't want. I don't find it contradictory. What does God want, why did he create us? He wants us all to worship HIM. But he allows other things to happen. The evidence of this is that we don't all worship HIM --that's part of the free will.

Obviously, I am NO expert on this!

EDIT: You see, you said on that one point - if God permits it...that is like allowing it....you see...it's really tricky with the wording. You know, I'm starting to confuse myself ---

Answer 9

Yes you can do things God does not want you to do and yes he allows it to happen, other wise there is no free will. God allows his children to choose. Remember just like laws of nature there are spiritual laws that apply. If you choose poorly there are consequences.

Answer 10

optimistically you are able to cease ranting long sufficient to study an answer and think of roughly it. Islam forces protecting of the finished female physique of ALL women folk previous the age of puberty. that is area of demeaning, controlling and protecting women folk as 2nd type electorate. A veil or habit on a Catholic non secular women folk is under no circumstances EVER a protecting of the finished face or physique. that is many times in basic terms a head protecting to be an outward sign to all like a marriage ring is to maximum folk. a marriage ring says somebody is off limits as they're married to a various already. A habit on a non secular female is the comparable different than it ability she is married to Christ and is likewise deserving of the extra appreciate you have got the money for a non secular individual. as an occasion, you would be a lot extra careful around this holy female along with your language, jokes, strikes etc out of appreciate. huge huge huge distinction you may desire to show out. The Catholic non secular female CHOOSES the existence and how of existence and concurs to the habit and all. She is under no circumstances pushed into it or asked to do it different than by ability of God. The islamic female is compelled by ability of adult adult males to placed on the protecting or be crushed-finished. The Catholic female can provide up at any time and circulate lower back to civilian, regularly occurring lay existence if she desires. there'll be no beating or violence of any form. The islamic female is caught. I even have traveled across the international and noted those customs with my very own eyes besides to my college coaching. You for sure have little understanding of what is going on previous your community. The burqha and hijab are very demeaning and proscribing for women folk in many countries of the international. attempt even using a automobile in some international places as a female.... in case you get caught you would be charged and sentenced to a harsh punishment. we are conversing approximately being stripped of your outfits and crushed with a cane or a whip of one form or yet another. that is certainty. attempt even examining the information on line of places like Saudi Arabia. Sounds super like oil, money and Arabs in extreme high quality vehicles.....nicely that's no longer the only element occurring there. attempt traveling as a female and notice the mess you will might desire to circulate by.

Answer 11

Surely God the Almighty, did not create the creatures in vain and did not provide them freedom without reason.

EDIT: This should help you both and whoever reads it God willing.

Abu Hanifa was once teaching Islamic beliefs to his students. He was arguing and challenging the validity of some of the statements which had been proclaimed by Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (a) Bahlool happened to be present as well. Abu Hanifa proclaimed that he could not agree with the three understated statements as made by the Imam.

The first one was that "Allah can never be seen." According to Abu Hanifa it was impossible for a thing to exist and yet be invisible!

The second things that the Imam had stated was that "Satan (devil) will be thrown in the inferno of Hell which will scorch him bitterly." Abu Hanifa argued: "How was it possible for fire to hurt 'fire', the fact that Satan was created from fire itself!"

The third statement of the Imam was that "Man alone is responsible for his actions and Allah - the most powerful - has nothing to do with his actions." "How is it possible, when Allah alone guides the destiny of man without Whose will nothing can happen?" This was Abu Hanifa's third challenge.

As soon as the speaker, Abu Hanifa, had made these three criticisms, Bahlool got up, took a piece of brick and aiming at Hanifa, let it go and cracked Abu Hanifa head.

Bahlool was caught and taken before the Caliph for punishment. In his defence, he pleaded that he had done nothing else except reply to the three criticisms which Abu Hanifa had made against the Imam.

The Caliph asked him to explain as to how and why he chose to reply by hitting and injuring Abu Hanifa. Bahlool said, "This man claims that if God is there, then he must be seen. He is now complaining of pain in his head due to the brick having hurt him. If the pain is definitely there, can he show me where it is? Well! just as pain can be there without being seen Allah also exists without being seen."

"Secondly, he says that fire cannot burn fire. It is a fact that man is made out of clay and this brick with which I hit his head is also made out of clay, if clay can inflict pain and hurt clay, why can't fire do the same to fire?"

"The third thing he says is that man is not responsible for his own actions but Allah does all things. If this is so, then why does he want justice from you and why does he want me to be punished for hurting him? He might as well transfer the punishment to Allah Who, according to him - is responsible for all the actions of man!"

Everyone in the court was stunned at this and Abu Hanifa was dumb founded - having nothing to say. So Bahlool was released without any punishment.

Thus, while some Muslim sects believe that Allah can be seen, perhaps on the Day of Judgement, the Shia Muslims say that Allah is the creator of everything; He was not created and as such he has no body like us that can be seen. If we can still believe in unseen things like air, electricity and human soul, why can't we believe in the unseen God?

If we are responsible for our actions and are to be punished or rewarded accordingly, then it is only fair and just that Allan should not manipulate or compel us to do things but leave us alone to act the way we see it fit, and be answerable for those actions ourselves.