Stunning Debate On Free Will !!!. . .. . . (see inside)?

Question

I have been debating a Muslim guy on some issues .

I say God granted man free will to do right or wrong .

He says God controls everything including your choices in life .

I say God never wants us to do bad .

He says God controls you to do whatever and it's only us who 'think' it's bad .

What Do You Think ?
Does God Grant Free Will or Does God Control Your Will ?




NOTE : This all started when I asked for the direct transcript of Shahih 41 . Another user had implied that it condones the killing of all the Jews , and I wanted to see if that was true or just propaganda . Answer ? Oh , it's true alright . In fact none of the answerers even attempted to 'candy-coat' it .

Answer 1

The Lord gives us choices every day. It is up to us as to decide to what choice we take. So this Muslim is saying that his fellow bretheren are supposed to kill innocent people because Allah says so or our God says so? Interesting debate.

Answer 2

God works in many ways. It is possible for an all-powerful God to deliberately and voluntarily limit His actions, as is His will and His choice, and still be all-powerful.

God could intervene into every little private malady and change it's outcome, but He doesn't. Yes, He already knows how it's going to turn out because He's all-knowing.

He still voluntarily allows us free will and allows us our choice of how to behave and believe. That doesn't mean He isn't all-powerful. It just means He chooses to do things this way.

Evil is not a creation of God. It necessarily would be if we had no free will and God controlled all of our choices. But we have free will, which gives us the choice to do God's will, or commit evil acts.

God allows evil to exist for a time, not because He created it (He didn't) and not because He cannot stop it, but because it fits into His overall plan of how this is all going to play out. It might not seem to make sense to us, but then we are only human, and we are not God. Evil, and all of its purveyors, will eventually be destroyed at the end of time and the Final Judgement.

I have faith that God, the Creator of the universe and maker of all things, knows what He's doing, and has a valid reason for why things happen the way they do. We will all find out exactly how everything fits together in the end, when the Judgement comes. I really don't care to be one of the scoffers who will end up saying "Gee, I never thought of that" just before they are thrown into the lake of fire..............

Answer 3

God grants everyone free will. If God controlled our will, then what are we doing here? So, does that mean your Muslim friend thinks we are all puppets being controlled by God? God does not control our choices. If he did, then everyone would have the same faith, we would all believe in God. This is, however, far from the truth. Basically we would all be the same. There would be no diversity with respect to God and religion. So, yes you are right.
Furthermore, God wants to see if we can make the right choices on our own. Yes he gives us guidance, but you cannot equate guidance with control.

Answer 4

God is omnipotent. God has granted us free will. Does that mean that he doesn't know what we're going to choose to do? No. See rule one - God is omnipotent. Therefore, God already knows the outcome of every one of our choices, however allows us to make the choices on our own.

Could very well be, that God has already thought of every potential outcome and provided a path for each decision we make. Life then, becomes like a giant "choose your own adventure" book. We make a choice, the outcome is already decided. In that manner, God does not control your will. Your will, is yours and yours alone. However, since God is in control of the universe, there is already a set path associated with each choice we may make.

He may never want for us to do bad. Much the same as he never wanted Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. However, they did - and there was a set outcome for that choice. He may not have wanted the for the Israelites to have to escape the armies of their enemies by crossing the dead sea/red sea, whatever - but there was a set outcome for the choices that were made.

In every story in the bible, there are choices that had to be made and set outcomes for the choices. This shows us that he allows us to have free will, but has already come up with what is going to happen as a result of each of those choices. This is evident since never in your life can you make a choice that causes the universe to come to a screeching halt. There is never the occasion where you choose a hamburger over a cheeseburger and all of time stops and you are faced with a void of reality. For every choice made, there is a path to take - that already exists and is laid out before you.

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around, does it still make a sound?" Of course - just that no one is there to hear it.

Answer 5

We should not generalise by saying that debating with Muslims are futile simply because some are fanatic. Even, in the Christian faith, many denominations have cropped up because different people interpret certain aspects of the Bible differently. It is the same for Islam, I am a Christian living in a beautiful country, Malaysia, where Islam is the religion of 70% of the citizens, so we understand their religion pretty well.

For example: The Old Testament is pretty strict on some details, such as God determines what you eat, drink, etc and the punishments meted out. The New Testament portrays the image of a more forgiving, open-minded God. As such, Musilims and Jews and Christians share pretty much the same beliefs. Only the Muslims and Jews' beliefs are of the Old Testament. We cannot blame them for being too strict and by-the-book in their beliefs, because if I were in their position, I would be doing the same thing. The Second Vatican Council changed a lot of things for us Catholics (yes, I am Catholic). Before that, we were singing hymns and prayers in Latin, the priest faced the crucifix, and we were much stricter with rules (eg no going to other places of worship). Now, we are somewhat more liberal, and thus (although being the "original" Christians) we do not base all actions by the Bible and taking literally what Jesus said. So yes, the Muslims actually believe(d) that all pagans go to hell and the Muslins go to heaven no matter what they do, but so did we before the Second Vatican Council. Yes, they do not eat pig or their women must cover up, but I personally think that Nabi Muhammad s.a.w made that rule because of the actual uncleanness of certain animals in the desert climate and the need to cover up because of the weather and because bandits were rife then.


So, on to the question: Do we have free will?
As a Catholic, I believe we do. The only destiny that is certain is death. Along the way, we make our own decisions and learn from them, with God watching over us. There is a well known saying along the lines of:
You: God, why are things so hard?
God: The obstacles are there so you can learn to be stronger, to pick yourself up and to learn from your mistakes.

etc.. Perhaps the wordings are different.
Implying that we do not have free will is saying that God classifies each of us from birth as criminals, Einsteins, Beckhams, etc. Which is rather sad.

However,an oft topic is on Judas, God knew he was going to be betrayed by Judas. Was it written in the Scriptures? I forget. But that incident implied that Judas was going to betray Jesus. However, many say that God did not condemn Judas if only Judas had not hung himself. but instead sought forgiveness and changed his ways, like Saul=Paul. That also may imply that, had Judas not betrayed Jesus, someone else would have, or at least Jesus would still have been crucified. So that brings me back to my point that only the end is certain, death, even for Jesus.

We have free will, but we must use it well. God does not control our will, but God grants us choice in life so that we may grow through our choices. Hope this answers your question and I'm sorry it took so long.

Note: Malaysia (where I live) has Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus, Christians, Sikh and more. We are so diverse that we have to be tolerant to live with each other. Fanatical comments do not get us anywhere, and radical leaders of both Islam and Christianity have cropped up in our country, but they barely stir up a storm because we have been living side by side for the last 100 years and have gone through 2 world wars and 2 racial "fights" together. So, I beg those outside Malaysia to be especially tolerant to Muslims and do not generalise because their religion is among the most unique and beautiful in the world. Born and bred in Malaysia for 16 years, I speak from experience.

Answer 6

You are not Gods puppit. He gives you freewill to make your own decisions and wants you to coose him. The evil in this world comes from people who choose to do evil rather than good. Yes it is your choiece. Why would God need you to do something for him if you don't have freewill. Why would any of us have to do it for him. This guy doesn't know the true GOD, he only knows the man made up one that he is worrshiping. Did he forget about the Devil? God does controll all, but he wants us to come to him willingly, not by him making us. The Devil on the other had wants to destroy you and all that is good in the world. I guess this man is working for him. Tell him to read the King James 1611 Bible. Maybe GOD will see fit to give him another chance to repent of his sins and be saved.

Answer 7

Hello Earnest,

When mentioned about free will in Islam, it relates to the issue of qada' and qadar (fate of a person or other things). Accordingly there are further subdivision of fates that is qada' mubram (fixed fate) and qada' mu'allaq (changeable fate). Fixed fate relates to the realm of Allah's knowledge and His perfection. This kind of fate could never be changed since it would not be compatible with His attribute. For example it is fated that all creations would ultimately face death/destruction. Only Allah Himself is free from death/destruction.

Secondly the changeable fate (qada' mu'alliq) are fates that was prior written on the Luh Mahfuz (akin to a master blueprint of all creations and events yet to be created/happening or has been created/had happened). This fate may be changed as a result of a prayer or deeds or choice of a person. To illustrate this, once the Caliph Omar refused to enter a certain village in Syam due to a disease outbreak. When challenged by Abu Ubaidah " Why are you running away from the fate of God? Umar replied, " I deviate from one fate of God to another fate" (narrated by Tarikh At-Tabari).

Hence from the above explanation, some fate are chosen by a person whilst others are pre-destined.

Answer 8

Earnest...Free will is two completely different things when you are looking at it from the two different beings we are.

Free will to human beings is one thing. But it is completely different to a omnipotent being (God).

Humans cannot fathom certain ideals of the omnipotent...therefore...in the human world...we do have free will.

To God (omnipotent) our free will is not truly free.

To simplify...the two-dimensional man has NO idea that depth exists...to him...there are only two...but the three-dimensional man not only KNOWS it exists....he LIVES in it. No matter how hard you try to explain, in detail, the third dimension...the two-D man cannot wrap his mind around it.

So free-will to humans IS reality. But to the Omnipotent...he can see, at any one time, past-present-future. So he ALWAYS knows what choice you will make. To the human...how can he see any point in time at once? They can't grasp that little reality of the omnipotent...but it really exists.

To truly understand free will...you need to start with the fact that God is omnipotent. Wrap your brain around that (I mean really think on that one)...then proceed to the next question.

Answer 9

Killing only Jews? Dig a little deeper and you'll discover the necessity to kill all infidels, anyone who will not accept Islam. There's another holy war brewing.

As for the free will thing, I believe God grants us free will and government takes it away, or more accurately, gives us limited choices based on what the government wants to achieve. Went off on a tangent there but it was fun!

Answer 10

This debate about free will is an interesting one. I personally believe we do have free will although it is constained by nature, society and history. If all our actions were predetermined by either a God or by natural causes we would have to rethink our ideas about personal responsibility and accountability. Because I have the ability to reflect on options available to me and then choose one of them based on anticipated consequences, that seems to me to be freewill.
To believe that a God controls my will would be a dangerous belief to have because it takes away my need to be accountable.

Answer 11

Free will debate will rage on long after we are gone.

My belief is that we do have free will. Yet the pardox is that G-d's plan will be fulfilled.
So how detail is G-d's plan?

I would say it is like a football game you if you are thrown for a lost on one play and you still win the game does it mean the team lost?

Good luck and if you do come to the answer please share it.