For who believe in or use magic or spells, what is the underlying principle or force?

Question

Everything we are and everything we have accomplished is both a result of the existence of and our understanding/using these fundamental forces: strong force, weak force, electromagnetic, gravitation. While our understanding of these is not perfect in all cases, we can work with and predict them and (important in this question) their interaction.

Now if magic existed I would expect some great big honking hole in these theories, a missing part, a question mark. It's not there. So what is it that you think makes magic work?

Bonus question: given the nature of people, why hasn't anyone used magic to rob a bank or similar?

suggested category: Science & Mathematics > Physics. Yeah, that would have been a riot.

Donna F: you're always welcome to answer my questions.

I see many people here who don't understand the first thing about quantum physics and use it as some kind of magic buzzword. Feel free to consider yourself ignorant.

tawaen: that is a fantastic answer.

Neutral, I usually respect your answers, but "Parapsychologists proved statistically, and under proper conditions, that the human mind is capable of telekinesis and clairvoyance more than 40 years ago." is bunk. Provide your "proof".

Answer 1

I guess you think of magic differently than I do. With your definition of magic, a supernatural one, I would agree that there is nothing to suggest it's existence. Nor would I lay any claim to work with it.

However, my definition of magic is quite a bit different. I have been a witch for many years, and I work with magic from a strictly psychological and mental framework. It's a combination of self-hypnosis, meditation, positive reinforcement, and symbolism used to effect change and to become more aware of the forces at work in my life. The change is internal, it is real, and it improves my life. (Or, to paraphrase with an overused quote, "Be the change you wish to see in the world.")

Magic for me is natural, and it's about change. I don't pretend that I have the ability or the right to change anyone but myself. And I have no more power than anyone else. I just choose to try to do whatever works in order to make my life a bit better. You can call it bad psychology, if it makes you feel better.

Answer 2

Part of the problem here is semantics.

What type of magic are you referring to? What sort of big holes in the laws do expect to see from something that operates well within the physical universe? If something operates OUTSIDE of the laws of the universe that is called a miracle (and many would argue that even miracles are not outside of the laws, just operating in rare ways).

Parapsychologists proved statistically, and under proper conditions, that the human mind is capable of telekinesis and clairvoyance more than 40 years ago. They, also, proved that the it was such an irregular and weak force (not a "weak force") that it could not be relied upon to accomplish anything "useful".

Their main focus over the last 40 years has been into learning how it functions. Since it was shown to not be useful enough to make a weapon out of, there has been very little financial backing of its study.

Answer 3

There are many theories concerning the underlying mechanisms of magic. If you want one that can be worked into scientific theories, then I suppose you could assume that magic is effecting things on a quantum mechanical level and is manipulating the statistical and unknowable positions of wave-particles. Since we can't know the exact position of particles anyway, maybe one could assume that magic is effecting them in some unobservable fashion.

However, to really incorporate magic into any scientific theory, magic would have to have some effect that could be observable and repeatable under laboratory conditions. Of course, that has never happened.

I sort of suspect that some of the things that we now consider science were considered magic centuries ago. I would guess that things like magnets would have been easily mistaken for magical forces amongst the uneducated peasantry.

There is some science today that even appears quasi-magical to some people. For instance, quantum entanglement.

As for using it to rob a bank...
How do we know that no one has ever used magic to rob a bank? In fact, if the magic worked well enough, I suppose people may never even realize the bank was robbed.

Answer 4

Five hundred years ago, magnets were "magic". Gravity wasn't even a theory until what...like 400 years ago? Six hundred years ago, we thought we could make gold out of lead. Gunpowder was "magic". If we could take cold medicine into 1784, you'd be burned at the stake as a witch.
Does that it make it any less mystical? To some people sure. I have taken college level science major classes. I look at it in awe of the Gods. My husband, who is athiest, thinks I've lost my mind. LOL It's just what you see. Perception is reality. Look at the different denominations who are so sure they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Magic in the modern sense is not hocus pocus. You can't fly or make someone disappear unless your Criss Angel and we all know that isn't magic. Magic is a form of prayer, a way of putting your intentions and desires out there to see what the world does with them. BUT if you ask five pagans what magic means to them, you'll get give answers. It's a very personal defintion.
Plus, in the faith you don't want to rob a bank. That crap will come back and bite you on the butt.

edit: Damn I could have just waited and said "What Tawean said." I tend to feel the same way she does. I will also go out on a crazy limb and piss most of my pagan friends off.
I don't like to call it magic. Ack!

Answer 5

I don't believe in magic...

But that doesn't mean there aren't sufficient holes in our understanding of matter, energy, space and time to rule out the inflluence of consciousness over physical laws...Or perhaps I should say "the influence of consciousness IN physical laws."

Because it is not possible to know something without becoming somehow entangled with the subject being observed, it is redundant to point out that "we cannot know the unknown until it becomes known...And then its not the same thing." The scientific understanding of gravity suggests that in order for our galaxy to maintain its current form and dynamic, something like 90% of the galaxy's mass would have to made up of "dark-matter." What is dark-matter? Its the imaginary substance that makes our theories right...That sounds pretty occult to me...

How would we know if someone robbed a bank with magic? Surely if one could use magic, they would leave no trace of entry and it would not be considered a robbery, but either embezzlement or a clerical error...And WHY would someone who can command arcane forces even NEED to rob a bank? They would just do a couple miracles and get sainted by the catholic church and then have all the gold and underage anus they could salavate over...Or prestidigitate whatever they needed on demand...If someone who could do that made their ability known, they'd have to wipe out half the world population to get any peace, or start a fancy new religious order that believes that they have gone to heaven to sit by the fathers right hand, or something...

Answer 6

quantum physics.
Magick, as is prayer, is the manipulation of natural energy through thought and intent.
Have you ever heard of someone changing the body chemicals through their own thought?

Most magickal work uses eloctromagnetic/ energy work. Why would magick put holes in these therories? Magick uses these therories and even helps to support them to some extent.

I think some people have tried to use magick and prayer to rob banks or what not. Who is to say it was not successful? Would we ever even know?
Magick/ prayer/ meditation are used in negative ways all the time. When you see a mob feeding on itself till things go so terribly wrong, that is negative energy being fed and allowed to take over to the point of bad magick.

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added comment:
Appearently, by virtue of the asker, i am to consider myself ignorant. I do not understand the hostility. If you do not agree with my answer, then simply ignore it and move on. I must have touched a nerve.
And i must say that i have only ever typed the words 'quantum physics' on yahoo! maybe once now. I do not consider it to be a 'buzz word' but a practical application to the question. Please don't be condescending. I only answered your question... and i refuse to consider myself ignorant. I may not have all the answers to everything, which is fine, as i would not want the responsability, but i try. I am far from ignorant.

By the way, your initial question is a great question and very well thought. Why you are mucking up with the comments, i do not understand. Hope all is well for you.

Answer 7

Same force that is in everything;
Quantum physics - Thought and energy. Energy follows thought. Thoughts are things that energy follows. Hence, manifestations.
Biblical - 'Whatsoever a man thinketh, so shall he be" Same/same. 'So shall IT be" included.
So a spell (which EVERYONE DOES, most, unknowingly) is thought followed by intent or emotion (e-motion=energy in motion).
Spell crafters use this natural principle consciously and on purpose, whereas, most do it all day long unconsciously. That's the only difference between Witches, Wiccan and Christians. We Pagans take responsibility for our lives and use what is given to us (if it was given, we couldn't use it!!). Many Christians like to give the responsibility to their God and act like victims and beggars of this principle.
Robbers Do use it. They thought about it, intended on doing it, then did it. Whammo! Magic.
No big honking hole, no missing part, no question mark. Just Universal Laws. Magic is all around us.

Blessed Be

Answer 8

magic and spells are tools for another belief system...manipulating energies has been around for centuries (alchemy for instance). I do not practice magic but I do manipulate energy just as those of you who wear a watch or use any type of cordless device with batteries manipulate those energies. I am neither offended nor substantiated by anyone else who believes in or practices magic or any religious belief system or by those who don't. I absolutely agree with you that our understanding of these fundamental forces is far from perfect but in my case, I can work with and predict ( to the best guess like anyone one else trying to predict the future outcome of any trial) these forces that I am choosing to manipulate. It's hard for me to be clear about my answer because I think you are asking about "magic" but are talking about manipulating energy--gravitational, geophysical, EM energy and because they are two separate and distinct things are far as definition (for me) goes, I guess I should stop rambling and let the masses speak

Answer 9

people who use "magic" are actually just manipulating the energy that exists all around us. it's using your will to shape the energy into what you want it to do.

some people can sense this energy some can't. a good way to see if you can sense it is to hold a stone (i don't mean a rock you pick up from your yard), amethyst, crystal quartz, hematite, or something similar in your hand. if you can feel the vibrations from the stone you should be able to "cast" a spell.

magic is nothing like what you see in movies or on t.v.. it's much more subtle.

most of the people that can do this believe in the three fold law (everything you send out returns x3) and the rede (harm none), so they wouldn't use it for something bad.

hope this helped.
bb

edit
wow. i wonder if the thumbs downs are because they don't agree with my explanation of magic or if they just don't believe it exists? maybe it's just the thumbs down fairy.

pagan for more than half my life.

Answer 10

the principle force is the laws of nature when something happens to me I believe it was cause and effect no matter how weird it was. Some one that believes in magic is going to call anything out of the ordinary magical or a miracle.take for instance my cousin and i were walking through liddle creek in California and we seen swamp gas that glows in the dark with aerie whitish grey color, to this day he swears it was a spirit.the only difference in the experience was the perception of what happened