Christians, BESIDES Jehovah's Witnesses, which other religious "Christian" groups deny the deity of Christ..

Question

And can you name a selection of their additional unorthodox teachings, practice and spurious prophecies?

I would appreciate only ONE group listed per answer, but of course, it's not set in stone. Now - defunct sects, cults, etc. are acceptable answers.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Blessings.

Mel -

You have not actually answered my question.

However, I WILL attempt to address the 27 questions which you have submitted in due course.

May God be gracious to you.

PS I will also have some questions to ask you afterwards and I will appreciate it if you show me the same courtesy and answer mine.

Mel -

1. Jesus is the "prototokos" of all creation. The word is used here to indicate His preeminence as "firstborn", i.e. first in rank, as the context of Colossians 1:15 - 18 clearly shows, particularly verses 17 & 18. Please note that the "other" which prefixes "things" in these verses in the NWT, is NOT found in the original Greek. It is a Watchtower translator's insertion. It is interesting to contrast this passage WITHOUT the Watchtower inserts with Romans 11:36.

The root word of "prototokos" is "protos" which can mean FIRST in time, place or rank.

If Paul had wished to convey that Christ was created rather than His preeminence, he ought to have used the term "protoktistos" which means, "first - created".

"Prototokos" is also used of the Lord Jesus in Romans 8:29, stressing His preeminence "among many brethren".

Hebrews 1:6 also uses the same word in ref. to Christ, the context being His superiority to the angels. Hebrews 1:13 DISPROVES the WT teaching that Christ

..is Michael, an angelic being - Speaking of the Son, the writer says, "But to which of THE ANGELS has (God) ever said:

"Sit at my right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool" ?

Also, in Hebrews 2:5 - "For (God) has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection TO ANGELS."

But hasn't the world to come been put in subjection TO CHRIST ?

So how can He be an angel?

2. John 8:42 - Jesus sent by the Father. Christians believe in God as three DISTINCT - but not separate - persons. So scriptures such as this don't really present a problem.

4. Again, the Trinitarian theology has no problem with the Lord Jesus, in His incarnate state of "humiliation" as the Father's servant, praying to the Father. No, Jesus did not pray to Himself. He prayed to the Father.

The Christian doctrine of the Triunity of God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - is sufficiently proved in John chapter 14, verses 15 - 26.

Here, the Lord Jesus tells the disciples that..

..He will ask the Father to send "another" (allos - "another of the same sort" - Vines) parakletos (a Greek term also used of Christ in 1 John 2:1), and that this One will "be in (them)".

In verse 18, Jesus says, "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you."

In verse 23, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make OUR home with him." (See also 1 Corinthians 7:19)

How can the Holy Spirit come AND Jesus and the Father ALSO come and dwell with the disciples?

5. Again, this presents no problem for the Trinitarian. God in three DISTINCT, but not separate persons.

6. John 14:28 - The CONTEXT is the Lord Jesus' impending return to the Father, to once again share "...the glory which (He) had with (the Father) before the world was." (John 17:5).

Revelation 5:13 & 14 shows that this "Blessing and honor and GLORY and power" is SHARED (v.13) and explicitly includes WORSHIP (v.14). There is no HINT...

..in the original Greek text that one degree of glory is given to the One on the throne and another to the Lamb. Neither is any distinction made between them when worship is given in verse 14.

Hence, in view of His return to this glory SHARED with the Father, Jesus tells the disciples, "If you loved Me, YOU WOULD REJOICE because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I." That is, in position. Remember that Jesus was speaking from a position of HUMILIATION ( "a slave" - Philippians 2:7).

7. Matthew 3:17 - The Father spoke to Jesus, of course. No problem for the Trinitarian.

8. Philippians 2:9 & 10 - You also need to consider the preceding verses which refer to Christ's humiliation in incarnation and His sin-atoning death. The exaltation is of the Lord Jesus in particular regard to His HUMANITY.

Does not the Watchtower teach that the pre-existent Word was second only to Jehovah in authority? So, according to your own theology..

..THE WORD could not be exalted to a "superior position" after His return to heaven. If - as you teach - Michael was already second only to Jehovah prior to "becoming" Jesus, how could he - as you teach - be exalted to a SUPERIOR position now, STILL being second only to Jehovah?

I reiterate my earlier point. The exaltation referred to here must be of THE MAN Jesus Christ, and not the Word, because the Word (whether Michael or God) was already as exalted as He could be. For the record, the Word has equality IN ESSENCE with the Father, as proved by the fact that He receives the SAME honour (John 5:22 & 23), including worship (Revelation 5:13 & 14). Only God receives such, correct?

Trinitarians believe that Jesus is BOTH God AND man, as Revelation 1:17 & 18 proves. In heaven, He is both the First and the Last (deity) and the One who rose from the dead (humanity - glorified).

9. Again, because God is three-in-one. Distinct, but not separate. As the God-man, Jesus is perfectly..

..qualified to act as a "go-between" for creator and creation.

10 & 11. 1 Corinthians 11:3 - the context is regarding female submission to male authority in the church. Man's superiority is in terms of FUNCTION, and not essence, as Galatians 3:28 ("there is neither male nor female", i.e. SPIRITUALLY, in essence) shows.

The same principle applies between the Father and the Son. The Son submits to the Father, but is not inferior to Him in essence. Where 1 Corinthians 15:28 says of Christ being "subject" to the Father, the Greek word is "hupotasso", a Greek military term. In non-military use, it refers to "a VOLUNTARY attitude of giving in, co-operating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden."

The same term is used in reference to wives being subject to husbands (Ephesians 5:24), but as already proved, wives are not inferior to husbands in ESSENCE. This "subjection" between God and Christ, man and woman, is all for the fulfillment of God's eternal purposes.

12. Jesus often refers to the Father as "My God". This is perfectly proper for Him to do so, as He is not only God, but MAN. Contrary to Watchtower teaching, orthodox Christian belief says that Jesus is BOTH deity and humanity, even post-resurrection and ascension (see Rev. 1:17 & 18, again).

Mark 12:35 - 37 is scriptural proof - contrary to Watchtower teaching - that Jesus was not ONLY a man while on earth. Jesus does not say here that the Christ isn't descended from David (because the Bible clearly teaches that on His mother's side, He was), but rather, He shows how erroneous the thinking is that the CHRIST was merely a man. If so, why would David - in a MESSIANIC Psalm - refer to Jesus as "Lord" if He was only his son, i.e. only human?

Revelation 22:16 also PROVES that Jesus in heaven is BOTH God and MAN -

"I am the ROOT and OFFSPRING of David". Please note that this statement is made AFTER Christ's death, resurrection & ascension.

13. Again, God is three distinct, but not separate persons, as already shown. Check out Matthew 28:19, "..baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". The Greek "onoma" can refer to "authority" and / or "character"

14. You (and JW's in general) really need to look closely at this verse (and others) IN CONTEXT, Mel.

First off, the Greek translated "seen" is "horao" which means "to stare at", it can also mean "to perceive, to know". It does not only - particularly in the context of John 1 - refer to a VISUAL experience. It can carry the meaning of something deeper.

Second, in quoting only HALF of verse 18, you have quoted most selectively. The whole verse says, "No one has seen (stared at, perceived) God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."

Third - I can think of at least one instance in the Bible where Yahweh DID appear (in human form) to man (Genesis 18), so...

..either John didn't know His Old Testament very well, or when He used "horao" in ref. to God, he was speaking of something more substantial than a "theophany".

The point of John 1:18 is that Jesus - in speech and action - revealed who the Father is in a way that men could grasp. Hence, in John 14:7, Jesus tells Phillip that in regard to the Father, "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen (horao) Him." Jesus equated seeing Him with seeing the Father!!!

Verse 9 - "He who has seen (horao) Me has seen (horao) the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

15. They did not die when they saw Jesus, for the same reason that Abraham did not die when Yahweh came to him in human form. HIS GLORY WAS VEILED. Or are you saying that the One who appeared in Genesis 18 was not God, contrary to the clear word?

16. I have already shown that Jesus was BOTH God and man while He walked the earth, and after resurrection..

..Jesus' body died, but the Word did not die. In fact, John 2:19 shows us that Jesus would raise Himself from the dead. But elsewhere, the Bible says that GOD raised Jesus from the dead. The oneness of the Trinity, God in three distinct, but not separate persons...

1 Peter 3:18 & 19 POSSIBLY speaks of the Lord in action while the body of Jesus was still in the tomb.

17. Hebrews 5:7 -

Jesus was praying from his humanity in the submissive position of a servant.

In regard to Philippians 2:5 - 11 and the Lord Jesus' "emptying" of Himself click on the Philippians link at Apologists Bible Commentary,

http://www.forananswer.org/

18. Where does it say in either the Old or New Testament that Proverbs 8:22 - 31 refers to Jesus (or even Michael?). Book, chapter and verse please, Mel?

On the contrary, what we have here is an example of personification of wisdom in a POETIC Old Testament book, NOT a doctrinal work.

19. Daniel 7:13 - Note that One "like the Son of Man" is given authority here. Also, Matthew 28:18 - "JESUS came and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." The Lord, in His incarnate humanity, has received authority from His Father.

20. See answer 17.

21. How could Jesus learn obedience and be made perfect (Hebrews 5:8 - 9)?

Again, CONTEXT - The passage is concerning the Lord Jesus' High Priestly ministry. In order to be a High Priest who could sympathize with the weaknesses of His people (Heb. 4:15), He had to experience HUMAN LIVING, in order to be made perfect (teleioo) as a suitable mediator between God and men (verse 9). How can one FULLY sympathize with sinful human beings unless one has passed through the same experience? The pre-existent Word could not do so. But Jesus was "..in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." (Heb. 4:15) Praise God that Christians have a SYMPATHETIC High Priest in heaven, One who knows what it is like to be human.

Yes, the Son also "..learned obedience by the things which He suffered."

Question - If the Word was really an angel, would He have not already known what it was to obey? Surely an angel would have already known obedience to Jehovah?

22. Christ in His humanity needed strengthening.

23. Satan tried to tempt Jesus in His humanity.

24. The "made lower" is in reference to Christ's position and dignity (see the Greek term "elattoo"), not his essence.

25. The Son (in His humanity) was tempted by Satan to rebel against the Father.

27. Hebrews 5:8 - This one has already been covered.

Question 3 is admittedly a difficult one, there are a number of theories concerning this. However, one scripture does not disprove the doctrine of the deity of Christ, particularly when so many others support it (see MY questions).

Question 26. Was God forsaken by God at the cross? The MAN Jesus APPARENTLY was. But He rose from the dead three days later, right? Jesus also KNEW that God would raise Him up (Mark 8:31). So why quote this from Psalm 22? Perhaps to show others that He was the fulfillment of this MESSIANIC prophecy (see also verse 35)...

Now MY questions for you, Mel -

(I won't ask 27)

John 20:28 -

Who does Thomas (a monotheistic Jew) address as (in the literal Greek), "the Lord of Me and THE God of me"? (Note the presence of the definite article).

Verse 28 says, "And Thomas answered and said to HIM.." Who did Thomas answer ?

In John 14:16, Jesus refers to the coming Holy Spirit as "another" parakletos (or "helper"). The Greek translated "another" is "allos" which means "another of the same sort".

If the Holy Spirit is "another of the same sort" as Jesus, why does the Watchtower teach that He is only an impersonal, "active force"? Is Jesus an "active force", too?

That's all.

BAMBI -

Can someone who disobeys Jehovah truly claim to be showing Him respect?

Then why do JW's refuse to give Jesus the SAME honour as the Father, when God desires it (John 5:22,23)?

So Mel, with all due respect, I answered nearly all of your 27 questions, would you care to answer my 3? Or any of the other JW's who replied, for that matter?

"Stop hating Jehovah" ?!?!? On what do you base that accusation?

I endeavour to obey God, including giving the SAME honour to His Son as to Him, as SCRIPTURE commands (John 5:22 & 23). JW's reject this CLEAR biblical teaching in favour of the Watchtower's "traditions of men".

Incidentally, I DO NOT hate JW's. On the contrary, I hate Watchtower false teaching. I also pray regularly for the salvation of those who use this website.

If you disagree with the points which I have made, then please feel free to refute me FROM SCRIPTURE. If you cannot do that, then how can you justify your stance against me?

May God be gracious to you.

Answer 1

CHRISTIANS WITHOUT CHRIST:

For these groups : Jesus Christ is not God:
- Mormons, USA, 1829.
- Jehovah's Witnesses, USA, 1852.
- Christian Science, USA, 1879.
- Moonies, Korea and USA, 1936.
- Scientology, USA, 1954.
- Children of God, USA, 1969.
- Unitarian- Universalist, England, 1774,
- Transcendentalism (Kant), USA, 1800.
- Unity School of Christianity, USA, 1889.
- Worldwide Church of God (Armstrong).
- Spiritualism, USA
- The Way International, USA, 1957.
- Church Universal and Triumphant, 1958.
- The Holy Order of MANS, USA.

Answer 2

Roman Catholics deny Christ came in the flesh, by claiming Mary's immaculate conception. If she was not a sinner, then Christ could not have come in the flesh.

1 John 4

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Answer 3

The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnessess
Do Not Deny that Christ is a god.
God's Holy word says he is.
And we adhere strictly to the bible.

Others said stuff regarding the Trinity;
this we reject, as it is Not a Biblical teaching.
Any research done, shows this to be a true fact.
Even from ur local public library.
Any1 that believes this LIE is Disrespecting Jehovah God
& His Son, the only-begotten god, Jesus Christ.

Thx, & have a blessed day.

Answer 4

Just one group missing from Sapere's list - Christadelphians.

They are remarkably similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses in beliefs. They are very Armageddon orientated and taken up with fulfillment of Bible prophecies to a similar degree and manner. They also believe in 'good works' as an indispensible part of being saved, like the JWs. Of course, those who are saved WILL do good works but Christians know they cannot earn or merit salvation by doing good works. The Christadelphians are very nice people, too, so sincere, and very well versed in the Bible (according to their interpretations, that is) and try to promote their faith with Bible exhibitions.

Answer 5

Number 1, Jehovah's Witnesses ARE Christians.
Number 2, Jehovah's Witnesses freely acknowledge that Jesus is a god.

I copied this from a related question answer:

1. If Jesus was God then why is he called the “firstborn” of all creations? Please read Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14.
2. If Jesus was God then why did he say that he did not come of his “own initiative” but was sent? Who sent him? John 8:42 and 1 John 4:9
3. If Jesus was God then why did Jesus not know the “day and the house” of the Great Tribulation but God did? Matthew 24:36
4. Who did Jesus speak to in prayer if he was God? Did he speak to himself when he asked help and strength from God?
5. Jesus “appeared before the person of God for us”? How did he do that if he was God? Hebrews 9:24
6. Why did Jesus say “the Father is Greater than I am”? John 14:28, Philippians 2:5,6
7. Who spoke to Jesus at the time of his baptism saying “this is my son”? Matthew 3:17
8. How could he be exalted to a superior position if he was God? Can you exalt the one who is already the highest? Philippians 2:9,10 (Note: It says “God exalted him to a higher position”. In proper English the word higher and highest is different. This means that God is the highest; Jesus is in the higher position. God has the authority to exalt him to a higher position. That means Jehovah, the father is higher than Jesus)
9. If Jesus was God how can Jesus be the “mediator between God and man?” Jesus is called the MEDIATOR in 1 Timothy 2:5
10. If Jesus was God why did the Apostle Paul say “the head of the Christ is God?” 1 Corinthians 11:30
11. Is Jesus was God then why did Jesus “hand over the Kingdom to his God” and “subject himself to God”? 1 Corinthians 15: 24,28
12. If Jesus was God then who does he refer to as “my God and your God”? John 20:17
13. How does he sit at God’s right hand? Psalms 110:1, Hebrew 10:12, 13
14. If Jesus was God why does John say “no man has seen God at any time?” John saw Jesus. John 1:18
15. Why did not people die when they saw Jesus? Exodus 20:18-19, Exodus 30:20
16. How were Jesus dead and God alive at the same time if they are one? Acts 2:24
17. Why did Jesus need someone to save him? Hebrews 5:7
18. If Jesus was God the one who is referred to prophetically at Proverbs 8:22-31?
19. If Jesus was God then did Jesus say “that all authority has been GIVEN to me in heaven and on earth”? Who gave that authority? Matthew 28:18, Daniel 7:13,14
20. Why did Jesus have godly fear if he was the God? Hebrews 5:7
21. How could he learn obedience and be made perfect? Whom did he obey if he was God? Hebrews 5:8-9
22. Why would an angel be able to strengthen him or the angels minister to him? Does God need to be strengthened and ministered by angels? Luke 22:43, Matthew 4:11
23. Why would Satan try to tempt him if he KNEW that he was GOD? Matthew 4:1-11
24. Jesus when sent to earth was made to “be Lower” than the angels Hebrews 2:7 says. How could any part of a God Head ever be lower than the angels?
25. Then if Jesus was the same as God, who was he being tempted to rebel against? Matthew 4:1
26. Near the end of his earthly life, Jesus cried out “My God, my God why have you forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46 Can God desert or forsake himself?
27. Hebrews 5:8 says that Jesus learned obedience! To whom would he obey if he was God? And does God need to LEARN anything?

http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm?article=article_05.htm

Answer 6

A better ?; is why do you follow the traditions of men,
making the word of God invalid?
May Jah have mercy on us all.

why do u ask a person a ? then block him?
1 of my contacts told me u asked something
then put a block on the user.
Stop hating Jehovah! and His ppl!!!
The user didn't ask me to say or do this.
Just asked me to go take a look, & see what was going on.
So, I'm just asking.

Answer 7

Jesus is not God, he is the son of God. I know it's a hard line to follow based on what you have been taught, but today is a new day so just get over it!

Answer 8

Christian groups or cults? If it is Christian groups, then there aren't any that I know of. If it is cults that you want to know of, then let me see
Christadelphians - these are a group that taught the JW's some of their doctrine and also how to set dates.
Unitarian Universalists

Answer 9

Hi Carl,
Mormon's come to mind as they deny the deity of Christ and the authority of Holy Scripture.

Answer 10

Read "Lost Christianities" by Bart Erhman, he goes through a bunch of em.