What say you all ?

Question

Simple logic prevents us sensible folk from believing in the up-from-the-slime theory. Even if all our noses were rubbed in so-called scientific proof, such a belief would go against the grain of our common sense. By the same token, all dyed-in-the-wool, proud evolutionists are equally zealous in support of their brand of truth and are unable to stomach honest-to-goodness Truth.
Common sense or far-fetched theory ?
What say you all?

PastorJohn55, Cool man! I like your answers very much indeed ! All common sense stuff!
Bravo!

Quote from Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow:

"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story end like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries"

Ponder on this all you modern wise men, and what say you all to the above quote ?

Answer 1

I would be interested in hearing some of the "overwhelming evidence" that is being talked about. I understand that micro evolution is a reality and there is massive evidence for it.

However, I have been reading of significant numbers of scholars who don't think the evidence for macro evolution is overwhelming. They say most of the chemical theories of the past have been disproved. They talk about the complexity and mathmatical improbability that chemicals could randomly have formed complex protein molecules, let alone the genetic complexity of DNA or RNA.

It has been too many years since my degree in biology for me to be comfortable drawing my own conclusions from what I've read. But I still understand what they are saying and the conclusions they are drawing.

So if you (those answering) are saying that there is overwhelming evidence for micro evolution then I am in agreement with you. But that says nothing about the origin of life.

If you are talking about macro evolution I don't see the overwhelming evidence or AT LEAST it is not considered overwhelming by some leading researchers in the field.

Good and competent scientists who have studied all the evidence are concluding that an intelligent being was behind the science that first brought life on this planet.

As for me, I will continue to be open to the facts. See it really doesn't matter to me. Whatever is real, God was the power behind it. But right now, my personal faith and the doubt I see in the scientific community from good researchers raising valid questions leads me to believe that the scripture is correct.

Pastor John

To Philosopher, I didn't say God. I said Intelligent being. The conclusion I read from their study said it was impossible for chemicals to randomly have created the complexity of a DNA molecule as an example. They quote some researchers who are on the other side as affirming the validity of their research.

If we are to conclude that "being a Christian" influenced their research and conclusions, then it is also fair to conclude that being an "atheist" or "agnostic" also influenced their research and conclusions. So in my humble opinion that argument doesn't get us anywhere.

As I said, my degree and career is now in ministry. But a part of my heart will always be with biology. I found the research interesting and felt that their conclusions fit. I'm still open to see where future research takes this. I am however bothered by those whose minds aren't open and seem more concerned with proving God doesn't exist then finding the truth wherever that may take us.

My conclusion as I said is mixed, I know that God is real. I have experienced his presence in my life and ministry. I have seen the power of the Holy Spirit change my life and make me a very different person. I think that part of the problem is that our interpretation of science perhaps is influenced subtly by our beliefs.

If a scientist rejects completely all possibility that a god exists, then he cannot be open to scientific conclusions that point in that direction and will be compelled to leave an open door and keep searching for an answer that makes sense - even if that answer isn't there. I was always taught that a good scientist leaves all options open...

My own conclusion is not scientific nor really is it common sense. Though I agree with my brother that common sense often leads an open mind to the conclusion that there is something greater than man. If there is nothing greater than man, we live in a very sad world, because man has really messed it up.

I have walked with God. And it doesn't bother me if people think I'm crazy. I don't believe I have ever pushed that on anybody here, if so it wasn't my intent. But I believe in God and the God I know created the universe. Whether he scooped a mound of dirt and breathed on it or whether that is symbolic of what science calls evolution doesn't matter to me. God did it - in my heart I know that.

To Brent - God invented the first computer, the model on which all future computers were built - the human brain.

To Philosopher - I don't believe I am being hypocritical, though I concede it is certainly possible. The existance of God is an area that science cannot address. Science deals only with what can be proven or disproven. The existance of God OR the non existance of God cannot be scientifically proven.

You may believe it is a myth and that certainly is your right. But if you close the door to the possibility that God exists, you have moved beyond what the best scientists have done. Science doesn't close doors.

As a preacher now, I have the luxury of being able to stand with my beliefs. If I were still in science, I would have to be careful to keep my beliefs open in the lab. The failure to do so might indeed cost me a vital answer that I could not see because of MY closed door. But I am not a scientist.

It is not my desire to put science down. I believe that science is a gift from God that has brought both great pain (when misused) and great benefits to mankind.

But scientific thinking also changes. It changes because scientists, good scientists, don't close any doors.

When I was in college, we were being taught one theory of molecular structure and told that while it had been until recently accepted truth about the atom, that truth was now shifting. We were taught a second theory about atomic structure and told that it would probably be obsolete in a couple of years because of a new theory. It was confusing especially since the names of two were similar.

My point is that what science teaches today will be completely different from the science of a century from now. It may be derived from current science or a whole new doorway may open. Don't make science divine. It is a wonderful thing that can bless our lives. But we must also keep it in perspective.

To the original questioner, I apologize for the length of this answer.

Answer 2

I guess I'm just not "sensible folk" and am incapable of using your "simple logic". Sorry.


Edit : I'd like to thank "driven2excelchery" (below) for giving us all only two options regarding creation. She should really submit a paper to a reputable publication, as I have yet to hear the theory of man evolving from a "banana eating, dung throwing, just above stupid ape-like being". That should make for some fine reading.

As to your quote from the astrophysicist, I say so what? Quotes from literally thousands of scholars are available to provide material for both sides of any theological debate, such as:

"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special. "
-Stephen Hawking

Or perhaps you will enjoy this one, for it seems WAY too fitting for you:

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein

Answer 3

"Even if all our noses were rubbed in so-called scientific proof" your expressions are a bit weird, but science is all about theory's and choosing the strongest one.
And if its over 99% chance of something being correct its definitely not common sense to believe otherwise, even if its hard to grasp.
Such as Einsteins theory of relativity or even the science of evolution for some people.

to pastorjohn: no scientist would ever conclude with the god hypothesis if he weren't already indoctrinated to believe it as a child.

re pastorjohn: i think its hypocritical of you to say that all scientists must keep an open door for a myth which has been debunked over and over. and yet you do not keep an open door to the possibility that there is no such thing.
if you have real proof then please share, but if its only something you "feel" and a change within yourself then you are only confirming what some of us already know, that its all just a placebo effect.

Answer 4

Common Sense is an oxymoron - sense is not common, but moronity is.

Evolution is not a religion, it's part of science, with a long history of examining evidence and basing conclusions on fact, not "revelation." If scientists thought like religionists, there would be no computers, since god never invented any.

Answer 5

You're not using simple logic. You response to having the absolute proof presented in an undeniable fashion and your refusal to accept it point to an underlying obsessive need to be right in your belief despite the evidence. That is illogical. I contend that you have no clue as to what the honest to goodness truth really is and are just repeating the baloney you heard some stuffed shirt preacher spew so he could collect your hard earned money.

Answer 6

You have absolutely no idea what "truth" even means. For you, "Truth" is the Jesus fish swallowing the Darwin fish. It's kneejerk reactionary religion freaking out over the discoveries of legitimate, responsible science.

The really sad thing is that you're not even defending your own interests, but those of people who have money to make exploiting your ignorance and credulity.

Answer 7

I always say that everyone has a choice. You can either believe that you evolved from a banana eating, dung throwing, just above stupid-ape like being OR you can believe that you were meticulously and finely crafted and created by Holy hands who breaths life into us all each day (look up atmospheric preasure) even though many people reject and attempt to utterly curse Him. And God does this because of His love for us.

So which is it? Are you the decendant of an ape or perfectly put together by Holy and loving hands?

Answer 8

No, it's not "simple logic" getting in the way of your believing in the "up-from-the-slime theory" (I suppose that is your term for "evolution"?). It's simple ignorance. Read something about it that doesn't originate from a church. Read something about ANYTHING that doesn't originate from a church.

Answer 9

I'd say you should do more research on a subject before condemning it as magical fiction. When you get your science theories from church you tend to not understand the real world.

Answer 10

It's more than logic for me. It's fact.
The Bible shows that animals were made from the ground, just as humans were, and that they were made "according to their kinds." Therefore, that is why we don't see a dog giving birth to a cat, and so on.

Genesis 1:21,24,25 Animals made according to their kind.
Genesis 2:7,19 Animals and humans made from the ground.
John 17:17 Jesus said that God's Word is truth.