Cram our beliefs down peoples throats...Besides even if there ISN'T a God then what have we as believers lost? And if there IS a God then look at what you as non believers have Lost.
2007-08-15 11:12:53 · 40 answers · asked by Just me. 1 in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
*Cheers* This is Pascal's Wager. It has been asked and answer ad naseum.
he most obvious problems with Pascal's Wager are:
How do you know which God to believe in? There are plenty to choose from, and if you pick the wrong one, you could be in big trouble (e.g. what if you choose Jesus, but get to heaven only to come face-to-trunk with Ganesh?). This is known as the "Avoiding the wrong Hell problem". If a dozen people of different religions came to you with Pascal's Wager, how could you possibly choose between them? After all, many religions are quite specific that they are the One True Religion, and not any others. Jesus Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the light. None shall come to the Father except through me." [emphasis added] and no doubt most other religions make similar claims. If a Christian considers the Wager as strong support for his faith, surely he must accept that it is equally valid for all other religions when presented to himself?
God is not stupid. Won't He know that you're just trying to get a free ride into Heaven? How can you sincerely believe in a God simply out of convenience?
If there is no God, you have still lost something. You have wasted a good portion of your life performing the various devotional rituals, attending Churches, praying, reading scripture and discussing your deity with His other followers. Not to mention giving your hard-earned money to the church, wasting your intelligence on theological endeavours and boring the hell out of people who really don't want to hear your Good News.
Can you get away with just sort of generally believing in a Supreme Being, without specifically believing in one particular Deity? Probably not - God will still know what you're up to. Also, many Gods are quite particular about how they should be worshipped. Many born-again Christians will tell you that the only way to Heaven is through accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour - nothing more and nothing less. General-Deity-Belief and being nice simply won't do. Many people believe that all the different religions are merely alternative routes to the same destination. Nice and tolerant (if a little warm'n'fuzzy) though this may be, there is no valid reason to accept this stance over the fire-and-brimstone fundamentalist position : if the fundies are right, then the un-Saved liberal theists are in just as much trouble as the nonbelievers.
Few, if any, atheists disbelieve in deities out of choice. It's not as if we know the god is really there, but somehow refuse to believe in it (for example, see if you can choose to truly believe that Australia does not exist). Most atheists disbelieve simply because they know of no compelling evidence to suggest that any sort of god exists. If you want an atheist to believe, show her some good evidence, don't just say it's in her best interests to believe even if there is no god. A person cannot choose to sincerely believe in something, just because it is pragmatic to do so. Sure, you could say all the right prayers and attend church regularly, but that is not the same thing as actually believing, and any God worth his salt would obviously see straight through that.
It is quite insulting. It amounts to a thinly veiled threat, little better than saying "Believe in my God or He'll send you to Hell" (in fact, this is often the form it is presented in). Also, the theist making this threat assumes that the atheist believes there is a Hell or a God to send her there in the first place. If you don't believe in Hell anyway, it's not a scary thing to be threatened with - a bit like saying "If you don't start believing in unicorns, one will trample you to death while you're sleeping." Who would be worried by that?
It is often self-refuting, depending on the person's description of God. If you believe that God will forgive anyone for anything, or judge people purely on how they lived their life and not what they believed, or that everyone gets to Heaven regardless (unless maybe they were genocidal cannibal serial killers), then the Wager is meaningless. You might as well say "Believe in God, or you'll... erm... go to Heaven anyway." In such a case, it doesn't make a scrap of difference whether the person believes or not.
Pascal's Wager is hopelessly flawed. It sounds good at first, but poke it with the spike of reason and it quickly deflates, letting out all the hot air.
An alternative - The Atheist's Wager
This seems to be much more reasonable, both for atheists and theists :
"It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in Him."
(And if God is not benevolent, he's gonna git ya whatever you do!)
This can be shown as:
God exists God does not exist
I believe Go To Heaven because
you believed Wasted life praying etc.
I do not believe Go To Heaven because
you're a good person Made the world a better place.
2007-08-15 11:17:00 · answer #1 · answered by Pangloss (Ancora Imparo) AFA 7 · 11⤊ 2⤋
Why do atheists or agnostics think that us Christians are always trying to cram our beliefs down peoples throats?
Because they are the only people who wake me up on Saturday morning to attempt conversion.
Besides even if there ISN'T a God then what have we as believers lost?
A rational and realistic mind
The time you've wasted attending church, reading religious texts and praying.
The money you've given in tithes.
If there is a God, what have non-believers lost?
No one really knows the answer to that. But if there is an intelligent God, I'd bet that he'd parcel out judgment based on how people live their lives and not on whether or not they were willing to assume his existence when he didn't show himself.
2007-08-15 11:23:55 · answer #2 · answered by Subconsciousless 7 · 1⤊ 0⤋
I've been here a few weeks now and I do not recall ever saying that Christians are always trying to cram their beliefs down peoples throats. That is the crux of the problem here as I see it between Christians and atheists such as myself. There is too much generalization on each side. I'm here to discuss issues. When you generalize about atheists and agnostics like this you invite such generalizations about you. And I'm sure that like many of us, you might not appreciate that as fair. Yes, atheists are guilty of the same so I guess it's become a question of who will be the first to turn the proverbial cheek?
2007-08-15 11:22:00 · answer #3 · answered by Anonymous · 2⤊ 0⤋
How much money do you give to your church? You have lost that! How much time have you spent praying or at church? You have lost that too.
If you claim then you would have given money and time to another charity, then most good charities are much more efficient at getting aid to the end people than churches are. You still lost out.
You only win Pascal's wager if your god is the right one. Considering the thousands of gods that have all been claimed to be real your odds are pretty bad.
See you in the line waiting for Osiris to judge us.
2007-08-15 11:23:14 · answer #4 · answered by Simon T 7 · 1⤊ 0⤋
Well, as an agnostic I didn't think Christians were always trying to cram their beliefs down my throat.
However, I don't think much of you. I don't appreciate being stereotyped falsely.
2007-08-15 11:20:24 · answer #5 · answered by Mystine G 6 · 1⤊ 0⤋
Because some DO try to cram their beliefs down our throats.
2007-08-15 11:25:06 · answer #6 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 0⤋
Because youmembers of these cults do try and cram your dishonest, evil, mysoginistic, homophobic, corrupt beliefs down peoples throats.
There isn't a "god" so you're wasting your time,effort and money on nothing, not us.
If there was the remote possibility of a "god" as described in your "bible", I would be glad not to part of this evil cult
2007-08-15 11:22:02 · answer #7 · answered by GayAtheist 4 · 3⤊ 1⤋
Because you do. You start brainwashing kids as soon as they're born. If there's no god, you believers have wasted your whole life worshiping and being idiots. If there is a god, god would understand people are put in the position to believe. I'm sure you've heard this before, but if you were raised in India, you'd be Hindu. Would that be your fault if god disapproves?
2007-08-15 11:22:45 · answer #8 · answered by Anonymous · 2⤊ 1⤋
well when im sitting at home and i get a knock on my door and open it to people preaching, or when im walking down the street and see people handing bibles and preaching while doing so, when i go to the mall and see people there trying to preach to people... that is just a small part of it.
when i was 5 i was told that if i didnt believe in jesus and ask him to forgive me and i died the next day, id go to a place where i would be tortured forever.
yup. that seems like cramming it to me.
2007-08-15 11:21:55 · answer #9 · answered by Chippy v1.0.0.3b 6 · 2⤊ 0⤋
Most of you are. And we cannot do the same, because we don't have a belief. We all just share a common "lack-of" belief. We're trying to save you from God's will so you can practice the free will you have. You only live once. The human mind is a terrible thing to waste. Use it, don't abuse it.
2007-08-15 11:18:28 · answer #10 · answered by nckmcgwn 5 · 3⤊ 1⤋
A variant of Pascal's Wager I believe.
Take a drink just in case.
2007-08-15 11:21:20 · answer #11 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 0⤋