Christians: You don't have free will if God is omniscient. Shall I demonstrate this with a thought experiment?

Question

Let's say I'm God, and I know for a FACT that before this day is out you WILL choose to eat pizza and will proceed to eat it. I then tell you I know this, and I tell you that I will give you $1 billion if you can pass the test. The test is simple. All you have to do to win is to avoid eating pizza today. Can you freely choose NOT to eat pizza? At the end of the night, is there any possible way you could have avoided eating pizza?

Lil_ball: So you are saying that God is wrong when he thought he knew you would eat it.

fire4christ: Why is it a stupid question? It gets right to the heart of the issue.

grgyssf: Serious as a heart attack. Think it through and you'll see.

Jed: Right, so you CAN'T choose not to eat pizza and therefore have no free will. I see you agree with me.

Microlink: It doesn't make any difference if he tells you about it. Even if he didn't, you still couldn't choose not to eat pizza.

Answer 1

I love your free will questions...


Nice avatar, btw! =0)

Answer 2

Your thought experiment is flawed because you've neglected the possibility that God is omniscient and we have free will, but that God doesn't reveal future information to you that will allow you to change what God knows as being true. The fact that God knows what you're going to choose in advance doesn't in any way interfere with your ability to make choices. Putting God aside, suppose that I chose to eat pizza last night. The fact that I now know that I chose to eat pizza yesterday doesn't mean that I couldn't have chosen other things.

Answer 3

Free will and the fact that God is omniscient are unrelated! Our free will comes from our WILLINGNESS to OBEY WITHOUT being pressured to do so! Just because God knows whether or not we'll stand in obedience doesn't mean He WON'T deal with us spiritually. But WE have to meet Him halfway physically in order for it to work! If salvation were forced upon us, there would be no free will. God didn't MAKE Adam and Eve NOT eat from the Tree; He only warned them of the consequences!

Answer 4

something stinks here and doesn't click. how come god had to ask adam and eve where are you when they hid in the bush? was he testing them for lies. did he acquire these abilities after moses etc? maybe this book is the best tales ever told to mankind and we are so uncivilized and primitive that these stories create our reality and control the process of good thinking. i can choose not to eat the pizza the god i know is all knowing but lets man handle their afairs as each sees fit right or wrong.

Answer 5

If NOT eating the pizza is possible (i.e. God is willing to lose the bet), then of course . . . it's easy money.

Some assert that man has free will. Some assert that all is determined. Some say that free will can co-exist with determinism. The debate has raged, unabated, for 2000 years.

Clearly, an intervening God presents problems for free will. However, a cosmic God -- a Creator who does not intervene in human affairs -- can be compatible with free will. This is because the human and cosmic realms are separate. Consciousness (mind) introduces capricious and unpredictable acts and relationships outside the causal chain-reaction of the physical world.

At least, that's my humble opinion. However, I just happen to have done some research on this very subject . . .

Despite the fact that most Christian denominations teach free will, the Bible itself is rife with determinism and predestination. Although there are many verses consistent with free will, they are far outweighed by deterministic verses. Here are just a few examples (for brevity, just the verses are listed) that clearly state that God determines who is going to heaven or hell and that there’s nothing you can do about it:

Acts 13:48
Romans 8:29-30
2 Timothy 1:9
Ephesians 1:4-5
2 Thessalonians 2:11-13
Jude 4
Romans 9:11-22

Even the Lord’s Prayer contains 2 instances of determinism:

1.) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done. On earth as it is in heaven.
2.) And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil.

In an effort to discover why the Bible is so inconsistent on this issue, I tried many Google searches, using many keywords. I couldn’t find dates for the concept of free will but I did find references to those who developed the concept. It appears that the concept of free will stems from the concept of freedom and that it grew very slowly, taking centuries to mature into a formal doctrine.

From the 4th century to the 2nd century B.C., the seeds of free will were being planted. Plato had a concept of rational governance which flirted with but skirted the concept of free will. Aristotle added an element of voluntary action but still skirted free will. The first, primitive, form of free will appears to arise with Epicurus, around 300 B.C. Determinism did not mesh with his observations. He diverged from the strictly deterministic Atomists of his day by claiming that atoms do not move in a pre-determined way. Making the motion of atoms random allowed him to break the perpetual causal chain of events kick-started by the Prime Mover. This opened the door for his assertion that man has free will.

It’s hard to understand how the ramifications of free will would take centuries to reveal themselves to our ancient philosophers. With the introduction of Christianity and its morality, particularly after it became the state religion (Roman Catholic Church) of the Roman Empire in 326 A.D., the development of free will was given a boost. Free will matured into doctrine, thanks largely to St. Augustine. He began advocating free will, around 400 A.D, to promote good works and responsibility for our own actions.

That’s 700 to 800 years of free will as a fuzzy, immature concept! It’s hard to imagine when we now take free will for granted.

The Old Testament was sealed about 200 B.C. (others claim it was sealed between 500 and 100 B.C.) and the New Testament was written between 45 A.D. and 140 A.D. This means that the concept (much less doctrine!) of free will didn’t even exist in the region while the Old Testament was written and was, at best, a primitive and fuzzy concept when the New Testament was written. Free will still hadn’t been fleshed out when the Roman Catholic Church was created in 326 A.D.

So it appears that the Bible is so inconsistent with the application of free will because a formal concept of free will wasn’t available to the Bible authors. The authors lived in a deterministic world, so that’s the way they wrote.

Answer 6

One of the reasons that many humans have a hard time accepting God is that we foolishly attempt to ascribe our own thinking and emotions to God, as though He were a human being. He is not -- he is another part of creation altogether, and it is impossible fully to understand Him or His ways. The deepest mysteries of the ocean floor are nothing compared to the mysteries of God. For example, we are taught that Heaven is a place of eternal happiness, and yet, suppose you die and go to Heaven and your dearest loved one is not there. Wouldn't you be sad knowing that they were in hell? Our puny human mind says yes, but God, who is infinitely powerful, says no -- He promises happiness in heaven, no matter what. To believe Him, and to believe that He will keep this promise, is called having faith. I have faith in the knowledge that although God always knows what will happen, He has given me free will to choose right from wrong. It seems like a paradox, but that's only because I'm thinking about it from an ignorant human perspective. When you make a difficult decision, could you expect a slug or a housefly to understand and comprehend the rationale and motives behind your decision? Nor can we humans understand God's rationale and motives.

Answer 7

well of course u can advoid eating pizza. u have a brain for a reason. i don't think u really understand God that much. Read the Bible. I know ur gonna read this but i also know u can advoid it. kinda like the pizza thing

Answer 8

If God offered me a billion dollars, I'd take it. Then I'd tell him I guess you were just joking about the pizza.

Answer 9

The point is, God is all-knowing.
Do we have choices? Yes, of course we do. All omniscience means is that God knows ahead of time what we will do.
Since God is never incorrect, if He says something will happen, it will happen.
And, no matter what man does, the events written in the Bible WILL happen.

Answer 10

Isn't it cute the way they lash out at you and call your questions stupid when they are challenged by the logical fallacy of their beliefs.