Breeding? Am I optimistic and naive?

Question

I have just been engaged in a debate over the word 'adoption' vs 'selling' dogs. I was saying that when most people 'sell' dogs it's for profit and 'adoption' is basically breaking even. I was trying to argue that responsible breeders don't 'sell' the non-show dogs in a litter to 'make a quick buck' but to try to break even for the money spend on the parent dogs, medical, shots, etc.

They were arguing that shelters and rescues are just 'selling' dogs too and trying to make a profit- that they are businesses and I was saying they are non-profit organizations. The adoption fees are just trying to cover their costs.

How do the responsible breeders feel about this? Backyard breeders breed to maximize profit. I understand that. Do you breed for profit?Am I a chump for buying into the 'better the breed' mentality? Are shelters out to make a buck?

Anyone else's opinions?

I paid $75 for my dog with no shots or health tests. That did include taking him anywhere in town to be neutered for free (normally local vets charge $150- there is no local low-cost alternative). I bet at least $40 of my fee went to the vet. The animal patrol guys had to drive 20miles out into the county, seize my dog, feed, water, shelter, clean up after, my dog for a month. They'd be lucky to come anywhere near breaking even. Plus they are a kill shelter- but only if they have to- so they may drive, seize, feed, provide care for months and then have to euthanize- so they have a major loss for that dog. Plus it's a college town and in May when school ends they are suddenly flooded to capacity each year.

Answer 1

I think if I EVER made a profit on a litter, I would drop dead!!
There is no way it would ever happen. Ever. Between show costs...which are THOUSANDS each year, and medical expenses for everyone, there is no profit.
The only way to make a profit on breeding is to cut costs and do it the BYB way.

I also happen to work at a shelter, and I can tell you that there is no profit there either. I am sure there are good and bad ones just like with everyhthing else, but generally, there is no profit. You might make a profit on the adotpion of one animal, but the next three need so much medical care to get it adoptable that you end up way in the hole. People do not tend to surrender totally healthy, up-to-date-on-vaccines, and spayed/neutered animals. Most often all those things need to be done and if you charged a price that covered all that, no one would adopt them.

"most competant breeders cull the litter and don't sell them"???????? What kind of crap is that???? You might cull one that has serious problems, but you do not cull just because there are pet quality pups. That is what the majority of people are looking for. If you breed looking for the wonderful show/breeding prospect, you are going to get a certain number of pets. You may not know until the pup is 12 weeks or more if it is "the one". You can sometimes keep one that seems great and then at a year, it just is not. I find it had to fathom that there are breeders that cull that many neonates because they are pets.

Answer 2

As far as shelters go, I don't know any that make a profit. The first dog I adopted from a shelter I paid $60 for all shots and a spay. Back then a spay by itself was over $100! So where did they make $$$? Last year I adopted a shelter dog for $125 from a shelter I know well, and I happen to know the extra $$$ went to the four dogs they had in the kennels that were very old and very sick. This is a no-kill shelter that keeps the dogs til they die of old age, so medical costs can be huge. The next dog I adopted from an animal shelter I didn't know about. I paid $90 for all shots and a spay. Nowadays, my vet charges almost $200 just for a spay.
The point I am trying to make here, is if there are shelters out ther making money, I think they are few and far between. I donate to the no-kill shelter I got my two dogs from, because they very seldom turn a dog away and even take them in from other states that don't have as many no-kill shelters.
It is even worse with rescue groups. I recently adopted out a dog that the group spent over $1600 on getting him well, and we adopted him out for $200.
I think the people who are telling you different about this are in denial, probably don't donate time or money to helpless animals, and are trying to justify their position so they don't feel guilty.

Answer 3

I have never bred any animal in my life and never will, but I will pass on what the breeder of my dogs told me.

He breeds his dogs to be the best they possibly can. Once he has taken care of paying for the mothers and pups needs including vet bills if he has enough left to buy a 6 pack to wet the babies heads when they go to their forever homes he's lucky. He tries to break even but often does not. he would rather sell a pup to a loving home where he knows it will want for nothing than to someone who can pay more and just toss it aside once the novelty is worn off.

Should a pup not be born in the best of heath he just keeps it, spays/neuters and keeps it for himself. Being a great breeder this does not often happen, but if it does he does not pass on the problem. No way does he kill them. I have seen him hold a pup in his living hands for days on end when there was nothing a vet could do and the pup was not suffering just so as it could feel warmth and love until it passed. Cull them... never!

He does not sell the dogs when he retires them from breeding. he spays/neuters them and they live out their lives as his "babies"

The shelter that I volunteer with is a no kill shelter. Dogs and cats are $100 for adoption. Puppies and kittens $125. When you take into account that most of those animals have had to be spayed/neutered and given the full course of shots as most come in as strays so no one knows what type of medical treatment they have received you are well over the adoption fee right there.

Also take into account many espcially cats can be there for a year or more, one cat has been there close to 3 years there is no money at all to be made there. In fact once my 22 year old has passed I will take that cat if no one else has. He's a sweet guy but no one seems to want a 3 legged cat. He alone has had thousands poured into his vet care with the surgery to remove the leg and deal with other problems he had.

Some BYB's try to profit off breeding. I'm sure some shelters do too, but from my experience a good breeder is lucky to break even and a good shelter never does.

Answer 4

You need to check carefully where you are getting the pup from in order to answer this correctly. There are some dog
dealers... for the lack of a better word that place ads that indicate will take your mix breed pups or unwanted pups for Rescue. Then they turn around call this mix breed a designer dog... Labradoodle, Puggles etc and "adopt" them into new homes for $1500 or more. They call themselves rescues and get the credentials... but bottom line they are making and showing a profit. They are not breeding, but are dealing in puppies. They may register with some bogus mixed breed registry which will print a certificate for $10 bucks. These are not Rescues in the idea of what you are thinking.

I know Adoptions are the big key phrase now... everyone is adopting out there pups... even purebred show breeders will
have people answer am Adoption Questionaire. etc. It does not mean they are selling at cost, however.

There are some show breeders out there that place all pups with litter back options. So people have to have one or 2
litters and the breeder gets the pups and profit. Yes, they are showing a profit. Some of these breeders are registering 52 litters a year, not on there property... But do the math... if they are selling these pups for $1200 bucks a piece x 6pups to a litter, they are showing a profit. They are not a back yard breeder. This is how some top show kennels finance there expenses.

Smaller breeders with one or 2 litters, and showing and all the clearances may be hard pressed to show a profit at all. I had a friend who bred 2x via shipped semen, $600 dollars stud fee, plus surgical AI x 2 $2000 including 2 shipments...
and got no pups. She then used a different stud still did another surgical AI and still cost $2000 and got 5 pups, she kept one, the stud owner took 2 she sold one as a pet... and you better bet they did not pay $3000 to break even. At $1200 x 3 she still lost $2400 on that ***** during her breeding life. Not included are OFA CERF Optigen clearances and show fees etc.

There really is no difference in terminology between adopting and purchasing or selling. You are spending money to get a puppy. You in essence are purchasing a pup for a certain amount. Smart shelters and rescues are selling those they can at a profit, and most shelters and rescues have deals with vets where they are reduced or free services the vet donates or vet school donates to write off on there taxes.

Answer 5

I am not a breeder, but having done rescue for many years, I can tell you that if your are providing all necessary medical care for all your dogs, there is no way to make money unless you are charging $5,000 per puppy.
The resuce I work with is all done on a volunteer basis and many of us invest our own money from time to time when there is an emergency and no funds left in the rescue.
We had a case come in recently that cost us over $3000 by the time we had her rehabilitated. We adopted her out for $450. Needless to say, that one was not a profit case.
Most of our adopters do pay a bit more than the actual cost, such as if a dog costs us $250 to treat medically, we may charge $350, but again, the surplus goes to other cases, not our pockets.
Also, there are occasions where we charge little to no adoption fee on cases where we feel the dog would be getting a great home and may not get one otherwise. Of course we only do this with very carefully screened applicants. But in those cases we lose hundreds of dollars.
It is my belief that the only way to make a profit either in breeding or rescue is to provide little or no veterinary care and carelessly sell or adopt the dogs out.
Any breeder or rescue worth their salt does not do it for the money and if they happen to make a buck, they are lucky.

Answer 6

Most shelters and rescues DO NOT make money. Backyard breeders are the only ones that make money because they don't give a crap about anything but using their dogs as a cash crop.

My rescue will get a dog from out of state for maybe $75.00. Then we take the dog to the vet. If there is nothing wrong with the dog the vet bill will be about $125.00 (with the discount). If the dog is not fixed, add another $100. or more. We adopt our dogs out most of the time for $200.00. You do the math and see if you think rescues/shelters are making money. If the dog has some health issues rescues will pay the price and sometimes it could run into the thousands.

But from what I see MOST shelters/rescues DO NOT make money.

Answer 7

Good breeder who get EVERYTHING done for the parents and the pups usually dont even break even. If a Chihuahua has to have a $2000 emergency c-section in the middle of the night on a weekend and only has 1 survivng puppy whom you still have to feed, worm, get shots done, health certificates (about $200) plus the stud fee ($300 to $500) registration paper work sent in (about $75) advertising costs ($75) travel to the airport if the pup is to be shipped ($25).... not to mention the costs that add up before the pups are even conceived (health testing, premium dog food, vitamins, etc) and the emotion changes a litter can put you through and lost sleep is priceless.. You do the math. That puppy sold for $400 to a pet home

Answer 8

Responsible and showing breeders do not make money. They lose money and don't come close to recouping it by selling off pet quality dogs from their litters. Backyard breeders do try to make money and usually that is the sole purpose of their breeding. Shelters do try to recoup some of their cost and that is understandable but, they are not trying to make a profit. Shelters are usually city or country run and are funded by license fees and from the city or county general fund. Private shelters are not run for profit and seek donations just to stay open. Theirs is truly an altruistic endeavor.

I investigated this once as I was trying to adopt a dog that would have my total of 4 dogs one over the city limit. So I needed an argument to convince the city to allow me to keep this dog. The city would spend $400 to pick up the dog, keep it for five days, and then euthanize it. My argument was that I would keep the dog and pay the city the yearly license fees. They let me keep the dog.

Answer 9

As someone who has volunteered in shelters and for rescue groups for 20 years I can say that these groups are certantly not making money. It costs way more to take care of these animals food, and medical expenses than they make on a sale. Expecially if it is a no kill facility. Most of the groups and shelters have gone to foster parents that take the animals into their own home and care and pay for all expenses themselves until the animal can find a home. This is because shelters cannot afford to keep all of them. I do agree that shelters are the better place to find a pet rather than a breeder but you are right that a good breeder basically breaks even after the cost of vet exams and shots before they go to new homes. Go into your local shelters and ask how much it costs to take care of these animals this includes food, shelter (the building maintence..lights water, heat, etc.) shots, surgery to spay/neuter them, and any other medical care.

Answer 10

It's quite possible for a reputable breeder to actually make a profit on a litter of puppies. If the litter was large, and there were no complications, and the breeder was fortunate enough to have enough puppy people lined up for the pups (without advertising), the breeder could actually come out ahead financially. However, a reputable breeder would not have set out to earn a profit at the time of the breeding.
Any breeder who breeds dogs for profit, or worse yet, any breeder who earns a living out of dog breeding is a puppy miller.
Don't get me started on privately owned animal shelters ... Some of them (not all) are nothing more than used pet stores, hiding behind their tax exempt status (but that's a whole other question).