How do Catholics justify...?

Question

having their priests be called Father, when Jesus made it clear to call no man father. This is not in reference to our natural fathers either.

Also, how do they justify passing a collection plate, when it states clearly that alms are to be given in secret?

And how does the Catholic church feel about those versus where Jesus talks about those who wear robes, making prayer a form and boastful speeches as they are full of pride and dead man's bones? So what about the Pope...he wears robes, makes prayer a form and makes boastful speeches about "his" church being the only right way to serve God. Where is the humility in that?

I do not mean to be critical of the Catholics, but these things do NOT add up. I really want to know how they justify these things.

BTW...I looked at all the references given by F.O., and have three things to say.

Refering to any written material that is published by the Catholic Church is NOT justification. The bible makes it clear to add or subtract from what is written in it is a sin.

Second, there is not justification for the questions I have, as there is nothing in your references that covers these things.

Taking bits and pieces from the bible and making it the foundation of any church does NOT make it a right way to serve God.

Dear MaphiaLu..I never said the catholics do not have the right to believe whatever they wish to. But for the pope to stand up there and state the catholic church is the only right way to live is asking the world to judge catholics.

Our belief does not have collection plates. Alms are given where no one can see you giving them to the minister but the two of you and God. The answer for the envelope does not make it secret. The only thing is how much and it did not say, don't tell anyone how much to give but its okay to give in front of others.

No we do not have a minister standing up in front of a group of people in a church building. No they do not wear robes. The explanation for the robe was unbelievable. The pope wears white and gold so you will think of Jesus.... Please. The pope wears white and gold robes and has people kiss HIS ring because he wants to draw attention to himself. If he wanted to be humble, it would mean dressing humble. A spectical is not humble.

Answer 1

I absolutely agree with you. I was born and raised Roman Catholic and always had questions like these rolling around. Which is why I separated myself from man-made religion a long time ago. Have a good day.

Answer 2

I think that thus far, you have received some well-thought out answers. But I will reiterate on the collection plate bit...you seem as though you are familiar with Scripture, and thus I will assume that you attend some sort of church. Are you trying to say that at your church, the offering plate is not passed down the pews? I have found this to be the case in not only the Catholic Church, but also nearly every last Protestant church that I have been to.

Although you will not take any of the responses regarding Scripture or Catholic teaching as a proper response, you must know that it is insufficient to only pick and choose verses from the Bible which seem to back up your argument--all of which were taken out of context.

There is much humility and truth that is found in the Catholic Church. Come on mom...what happened to the golden rule that you speak of?

Answer 3

*Is Catholic*

1. That is not really what that passage means. I suggest that you look it up in many different biblical commentaries, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, old and modern. See the different views.

Also, there are plenty of verses that are "quite plan" but you do not follow.

2. The collection plate is not exactly "alms". Look at the Jewish requirements for giving money to the Levities. There are alms as well as required liturgical "collections". Besides, read Paul's letter to the Romans. It is in part a call to "pass the plate" for his impending journey to Spain.

3. Given that Jesus wore a robe when he taught in the synagogue and the temple, you must be misreading passaged.

4. Jesus made prayer a form. Our Father who art in heaven...

5. Well, the Catholic Church is "his" Church. Regardless of what you think about the Catholic Church, it is his.

6. That is not what the Pope said. Please read DOMINUS IESUS then http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/printDettaglio.jsp?id=154889&eng=y

7. It is not lacking in humility to say that the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ and in her is the fullness of salvation IF THAT IS TRUE.

Answer 4

This question I propose to you. Did Jesus ever make an issue of words and terms for things. Did He ever come out against a group of people because of the format of their giving or worship. He made it a point to show that, though He was a "Jew(you would assume this to be somewhat of an endorsement of their Faith that God came to earth as a member of thier faith), He accepted the Samaritans as equals-though most Jews of the day had a big problem with the way and format that Samaritans worshiped.

I highly doubt that any member of the Trinity would deny heaven to a person of sincere faith in them, that used the word Father for a person on this earth or that God would look disdainfully on the person who puts their tithe in an envelope and put it in a basket. This is not the attitude of Christ. Christians should have the attitude of Christ more than any rules about giving or the naming of things.

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 cor 13


These kind of judgmental churches are what Jesus was talking about when He said. "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

Lastly it strikes me as pretty darned arrogant to sit back and judge all the other Christian churches in the world who don't follow your churches rules as wrong. So who is the humble one? The one that accepts the wisdom handed down from the Apostles or the one who reinvents all of these practices on thier own ideas and thoughts?

Answer 5

I probably should have quoted the entire chapter, but I will start with your verse and put it into context:

Matt 23:8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[b] 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

So we should not be call Rabbi's, fathers and teachers. You pointed out one and forgot the other two. But who are called Rabbi's, fathers and teachers?

Let start with the first sentence: Matt 23:2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach..."

It is the teachers of the Law (Rabbi's) and the Pharisees. It is "do not do what they do". This includes the use titles without action.

Obviously, you will find in the Epistles (Paul) the use of teacher 1 Cor 12:28 as well as teachers of the Law. It is clear, extremely clear, that God is the focus and that actions give titles.

Now to your anti-Catholic remarks: The restriction is 1 Cor 10:23-24, and frankly, your tone is not helpful. Your focus should be toward God, not what others are doing. It is God who judges, not you.

When you quote what Jesus said, please remember Jesus never attacked any group for their beliefs, it was for their behavior. In this question, it is your behavior that is lacking.

Answer: Anti-Catholic bigotry is exactly that; there is no biblical support.

Additional comments.

You seem to not get it, so I will make this perfectly clear: You have quoted the bible out of context, and you statements are not biblical. Try reading the reading the above answer before you add to the confusion.

What you claim is incorrect. You are an anti-Catholic begot that know nothing (let me repeat nothing) about Protestantism.

Answer 6

Really? And which Catholic "do gooders" would that be? Considering you didn't bother to even cite a source. The official position of the Church is that an "abortion" that is the result of a procedure to save the mother's life is acceptable as the intention of the procedure is to save the mother, not to abort the fetus. If the mother's life was in danger and a procedure was needed to save her that had the "byproduct" of aborting the babies, such a procedure is acceptable. I think it's likely the OP made this up, but anyone who said the child needed to carry to term was stating something contrary to official Church position. Of course it's easier for the Catholic hating bigots to just assume the worse, isn't it? And the person who stated that the "Catholic Lawyers" at the Vatican were called to bring murder charges against the girl: Exactly how much power do you think the Church has? I truly dislike people who lie to support their opinions.

Answer 7

"Call no man 'father'...." You didn't finish the verse. It also says, "Call no man 'teacher.'"

Do you REALLY think Jesus meant that you can't call the man married to your mother, the guy who helped make you, 'Father'? Do you really think that Jesus meant that you can't call your instructors at school 'teachers'?

Obviously, He meant something other than using the words as titles. The problem is, you took the verse out of context. The very next verse talks about how the role of the servant is most important. So what Jesus was really saying here was, "Don't give people more importance because of their role -- the real importance comes from being willing to serve."

You also have to consider the fact that the word "father" is routinely used for spiritual leaders in the rest of the NT. Paul says he is the father of his Christian converts (1st Thess. 2:10-11). Acts calls Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David fathers (4:25, 7:2, 8, 14). Paul says Timothy is his son, and he (Paul) is Timothy's father (Philip. 2:22). 1st John 2:13, 14 twice calls certain members of the congregation fathers.

Every Catholic priest is ordained in Christ to say, "In Christ Jesus I became your father through the Gospel" (1st Cor. 4:15). A priest is sent "to deal with us as a father deals with his children, encouraging, comforting, and urging us to live lives worthy of God" (1st Thess. 2:11-12).

So that's how we justify it.

The Bible does tell people to give their alms in secret -- that's what the envelopes are for! We tuck our offering into an envelope to hide the amount from prying eyes. But even if we didn't, even if we just put our money in the plate, that wouldn't mean we are violating scripture. It's not a commandment to give alms in secret. It's a strong recommendation. Anyway, I was protestant for many years before I became Catholic, and the preachers always asked for money and provided detail instruction as to how to give -- then passed plates or baskets. It's not limited to Catholicism, and it's not banned in Scripture.

Jesus talks about people wearing robes to call attention to themselves, making loud prayers and boastful speeches to call attention to themselves, etc. The Pope wears white robes to call people's attention to Jesus, not himself. He wears the robes -- highly unfashionable, by the way -- because he is hiding himself and clothed only in giving glory to God. His prayers and speeches are not to laud himself but to praise the Lord. I daresay your pastor stands up in front of you ever Sunday and speaks loudly and fervently on things of the Lord and then prays a bit the same way -- do you condemn him for not being humble or thank the Lord that He sent you a good servant to help you along the path of righteousness?

Humility is defined in a person's heart. You cannot see ANY person's heart, including the pope's. You are not God, you cannot judge the Pope or anyone else for being deficient.

Answer 8

I think it's very telling of your character how you levy all these fallacious claims against the Church, saying all this is in the Bible - but you provide not one quote as evidence backing up your beliefs.

And then, you have the self-righteous audacity to demand Biblical proof from Catholics?

Provide me with Bible verses to back up your claims, and I will provide you with Bible verses confirming the Catholic Church.

Answer 9

+ Call no man father +

Matthew 23:6-9 reads, "They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation 'Rabbi.' As for you, do not be called 'Rabbi.' You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers. Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven."

Are we also not to call anyone "teacher" or "doctor" which is how "rabbi' would translate? I think not.

This is call for humility for those in leadership roles. Not to be taken literally.

We are not to deny our male parent and cut the Commandment to honor our father and mother in half.

Some leaders in any church may fall into the same folly of a lack of humility as the pharisees of Jesus' day.

The Apostle Paul writes:

I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. (1 Corinthians 4:14-15)

And:

As you know, we treated each one of you as a father treats his children, exhorting and encouraging you and insisting that you conduct yourselves as worthy of the God who calls you into his kingdom and glory. (1 Thessalonians 2:11-12)

And:

I urge you on behalf of my child Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment, who was once useless to you but is now useful to (both) you and me. (Philemon 10-11)

And finally, Peter calls himself the "father" of Mark:

The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son. (1 Peter 5:13)

+ Collection Plates +

A collection plate full of envelopes with "secret" offerings should fulfill the teaching of Jesus for humility.

+ Humility +

The Pope never calls the Church of Jesus Christ "his".

Humility is the virtue which acknowledges that all we have and all we accomplish is God's work not ours.

The opposite of humility is the sin of pride. Pride in yourself is undue self-esteem or self-love, which seeks attention and honor and sets oneself in competition with God.

Pride in things like your religion, your heritage, your nation, and your children are just being thankful for gifts from God. These are not the sin of pride.

With love in Christ.

Answer 10

As an Ex-Catholic, I hear you, but all faiths have their WTF moments. Sometimes they like to highlight them and justify them by calling them "Mysteries", but such answers don't satisfy thinking people, who aren't into deep denial. I searched for a better, more logical faith. I found some better than others but none were a good fit for me. I finally gave up altogether and declared myself a freethinker, but maybe you'll have better luck than I did. Where ever life takes you, best of luck to you.