If there is no God, there is no reason (or thought or logic)?

Question

Source: www.biblicaldefense.org/
Writings/debate1.htm

"...When we hear about a frog instantly becoming a prince, we call it a fairy tale. But if we are told that a frog became a prince gradually over a period of several million years, we call this science."

"...From a mound of dirt, a single thought will never be produced - no matter how much time is given."

"If no God exists and all we are is molecules in motion, from whence come human rights? If an innocent child is merely a random collection of atoms, can we really say that it is wrong to crush him? If there is no life after death and all we face is everlasting extinction, can this life really have meaning? What counsel can an atheist offer a suffering friend on his deathbed? Can we climb above despair if all we face is extinction? When the universe dies, all will die with it. If atheism is true, then human experience is a cruel joke. And, if life is a cruel joke, then why even bother to debate?"

Answer 1

the part about human rights is especially crucial to this argument. while naziism applied a genetic approach to darwinian ideas, communism applied economics to the darwinian principles. all in all, about 140 million people were murdered over the past 100 years in an attempt to advance the human race. people don't understand the ruthlessness that can come from evolutionism, but they need to.

Answer 2

"...When we hear about a frog instantly becoming a prince, we call it a fairy tale. But if we are told that a frog became a prince gradually over a period of several million years, we call this science."

That's pretty much the way of it. Evolution is science.

"...From a mound of dirt, a single thought will never be produced - no matter how much time is given."

Why are christians using this as a defense? They believe that we are created from dirt, so this holds no water on their part.

"If no God exists and all we are is molecules in motion, from whence come human rights? If an innocent child is merely a random collection of atoms, can we really say that it is wrong to crush him? If there is no life after death and all we face is everlasting extinction, can this life really have meaning? What counsel can an atheist offer a suffering friend on his deathbed? Can we climb above despair if all we face is extinction? When the universe dies, all will die with it. If atheism is true, then human experience is a cruel joke. And, if life is a cruel joke, then why even bother to debate?"

Wow...there are a lot of assumptions and insecurities here. First of all, we are just 'molecules' in motion. Human rights come from society and culture, not a divine being. The meaning of our lives is what we give it. There is no need to 'counsel' someone on their deathbed, just being with a person is enough. We can and have climbed above despair, without false hope. Yes, when the universe ends, anything living will end too...that's the way of things. Human experience is only a cruel joke if you view it that way. Some of us prefer to view it as life...the only one we have, and we intend to make the most of it.

Answer 3

Do these arguments really seem logical to you? My responses be in ALL CAPS.

"...When we hear about a frog instantly becoming a prince, we call it a fairy tale. But if we are told that a frog became a prince gradually over a period of several million years, we call this science."

IT'S BILLION OF YEARS....NOT MILLIONS.

GEOLOGY SHOWS THAT FOSSILS ARE OF DIFFERENT AGES.

PALEONTOLOGY SHOWS A FOSSIL SEQUENCE, THE LIST OF SPECIES REPRESENTS CHANGES THROUGH TIME.

TAXONOMY SHOWS BIOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS AMONG SPECIES.

EVOLUTION IS THE EXPLANATION THAT THREADS IT ALL TOGETHER.

CREATIONISM IS THE PRACTICE OF SQUEEZING ONE'S EYES SHUT AND WAILING "DOES NOT!".

"...From a mound of dirt, a single thought will never be produced - no matter how much time is given."

AHEM, EXCUSE ME . . . THE BIBLICAL ACCOUNT STATES THAT GOD CREATED US FROM DIRT. THE SCIENTIFIC ACCOUNT OF ABIOGENESIS THEORIZES THAT LIFE BEGAN IN A PRIMORDIAL SOUP OF ORGANIC MATTER THAT SPANNED THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH -- WHICH WAS COVERED WITH WATER: HENCE PRIMORDIAL SOUP AND NOT PRIMORDIAL BREAD. IT TOOK ABOUT A BILLION YEARS FOR THE FIRST SINGLE-CELLED ORGANISM TO SPAWN BUT 2.5 BILLION YEARS FOR LIFE TO DIVERSIFY BEYOND SINGLE-CELLED ORGANISM. THIS IS JUST A THEORY BUT I THINK IT WILL BE BORN OUT SOON. THE EVIDENCE IS MOUNTING IN SUPPORT OF ABIOGENESIS.

"If no God exists and all we are is molecules in motion, from whence come human rights? If an innocent child is merely a random collection of atoms, can we really say that it is wrong to crush him? If there is no life after death and all we face is everlasting extinction, can this life really have meaning? What counsel can an atheist offer a suffering friend on his deathbed? Can we climb above despair if all we face is extinction? When the universe dies, all will die with it. If atheism is true, then human experience is a cruel joke. And, if life is a cruel joke, then why even bother to debate?"

"IF" IS SUCH A BIG WORD, ISN'T IT? WE'RE OBVIOUSLY MORE THAN MERE MOLECULES -- POSTULATING A TRANSPARENTLY SELF-SERVING ARGUMENT PROVES THAT THERE'S MORE TO US THAN MOLECULES. LIFE HAS MEANING IF YOU HAVE A MEANINGFUL LIFE. IF YOU THINK THAT LIFE HAS NO MEANING WITHOUT GOD, THEN THAT WILL BE TRUE FOR YOU. IT'S CERTAINLY NOT TRUE FOR ME. THE WAY TO COME TO GRIPS WITH DEATH IS TO COME TO GRIPS WITH LIFE.....REAL LIFE....NOT THAT FANTASY LIFE YOU CALL RELIGION.

WHEN THE UNIVERSE DIES, HUMANITY WILL BE LONG GONE. DON'T YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT COSMOLOGY? IT'S EASY TO BE SUCKERED BY NONSENSE WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN IMPRESSION AND AN OPINION IS THAT AN OPINION IS AT LEAST MODESTLY INFORMED.

"Religion supports nobody. It has to be supported. It produces no wheat, no corn; it ploughs no land; it fells no forests. It is a perpetual mendicant. It lives on the labors of others, and then has the arrogance to pretend that it supports the giver." ~Robert G. Ingersoll

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. ~Author Unknown

Answer 4

Let me see if I understand this random collection of "questions" and irrational conclusions...

You are saying, that if there is no design and no eternal destination, nothing can really exist? What about the fact that many of the items you use everyday, were invented while trying to "design" or invent something else? If the human mind can invent things that have undesigned uses or effects, do those uses or effects not exist? Only 110 years ago, the idea of have the cart move without the assistance of a horse or ox seemed preposterous. Now, this society would not be where it is if we threw out the concept of the horseless carriage.

The simple fact that we are more than the sum of our parts suggests that there is no all-powerful creator. Why would he design something that has become greater than the design?

Answer 5

What a joke.

Science never said a frog turned into a prince. Not even close.
And it is truly depressing that the author cannot find any meaning in life without a fairy tale... Not to mention - if atheism is right, then who is the perpatrator of this cruel joke??? Doesnt even make sense...

Answer 6

Nonsense.

That's true. You can't have a frog just turn into a prince. However, earlier forms of life didn't "just turn" into humans and all the other animals we see. There was a process involved that you seem to not have much of an understanding of. That process is called evolution. Evolutionary processes have been observed in many areas, not just evolution. This process can, over time, make very simple things complex. For more information on this topic, I suggest Dawkins' book, "Climbing Mount Improbable". It addresses the issue you're having a problem with here, which is the improbability of it "just happening".

As for human rights, the main benefit to morality is that it allows us to live near each other in relative peace. This partly came about because we evolved into the type of animal that likes to form groups. Groups have some major survival benefits. In any animal group, you will find a morality system. That morality comes about naturally because of the requirements for a group to form. Those groups that didn't meet those requirements as well, didn't survive as well.

SInce we've advanced, we've developed many more abstract groups, though they tend to work in similar ways. We've also developed more complex social strategies for maintaining the groups we join, protecting them, and competing within them.

As for meaning, the only meaning to your life is that which you give it yourself.

I can offer my friend on his deathbed that, at least, he won't suffer. A Christian can't even offer that, since they believe that God is the only judge and they cannot guess his judgement.

If Christianity is true, then life is a crueler joke.

Answer 7

umm, so whats the question again? man created reason, thought and logic. a human is taught the difference between right and wrong, and yes the human experience could be a cruel joke, or its a test. everything is about survival, from what we do to how we look to what we wear, and i believe the biggest question, is how to survive something like the universe collapsing, and then restarting. for right now and time to come we would come up with an answer. but, for right now we can't even save our own world.

Answer 8

"...When we hear about a frog instantly becoming a prince, we call it a fairy tale. But if we are told that a frog became a prince gradually over a period of several million years, we call this science."

When we hear about a fairy leaving money under our pillow for our teeth, we call it a fairy tale. But if we are told that a big invisible man in the sky over the period of our life will tempt and try us for a reward system after death, we call this religion.

Answer 9

I don't need a belief in a higher power or an afterlife to give me a reason for living. I enjoy life and try to live each day to the fullest because it's possible that there may not be a tomorrow. Why not enjoy what you have, instead of wasting time hoping for something better when you die?

Virtue has its own reward. It's more noble to do the right thing because it is the right thing, and less noble to do the right thing because you fear eternal punishment or hope for eternal reward.

Answer 10

1.) The "Argument from Personal Incredulity" (i.e.; I can't accept it, therefore it must not be true") is one of the most feeble logical fallacies out there...

2.) So....by your own admission, saying "First there's nothing, then 'ZAP', there is something" is a fairy tale? Well, there goes your entire story of Genesis...

3.) Who says life HAS to have meaning, apart from what we ourselves assign to it? This is another logical fallacy among theists, known as "begging the question" or "assuming the answer".

4.) The counsel we offer our dying friend is our time together, and our love -- whether life is fleeting or eternal, it's still the only game in town.