question for breeders - mastiff puppy with hip displasia despite guarantee?

Question

Hi. I run a mastiff group in my area with almost 60 members now. One of our members with a beautiful 5 month old English Mastiff puppy named Solomon was just diagnosed today with mild to moderate hip displasia. He was bought from a breeder in CA and was from champion lines with a 2 yr health guarantee. How should these owners react to this vis a vis the breeder and what should they do to support their pup? How does this happen? And how often does it happen with reputable breeders? I have a feeling my group will now panic a bit about their own pups and I have had a pang for my own. I realize hip problems go with the breed but when you pay for champion lines and research for a great breeder paying for health guarantees, it just seems tragic. Any suggestions as to how to help the owners, my group, deal with the breeder or medical options for Solomon are welcome. Is an operation for his hips worthwhile in this situation?

The health guarantee was for the hips for two years. Solomon is very large for a five month old and the line he comes from could have him at over 250 lbs eventually. They are aware they can get a full refund but this doesnt heal their hearts about Solomon. They love him and want him to be able to live a full life and arent looking to replace him. What about the costs of the surgery or vet visits ?? I just dont know the ins and outs of this kind of situation so I really appreciate your expertise on it.

Answer 1

A guarantee is usually against "crippling" hip dysplasia...where the vet deems the dog unable to live a comfortable life and says euthanasia should be considered.

Most guarantees do NOT mean that the breeder guarantees that the dog will NOT have hip dysplasia. No breeder can do that. Even with OFA cleared stock as far back as the eye can see, not all dogs wll be free of HD. It just is not possible. It is not a simple thing, like if both parents are free of HD the puppies can't have it. HD can be environmental also. Puppy buyers oftern do not understand the care that the breeders advise for puppies. No stairs, no slippery floors, no walks on concrete, no long walks at ALL until after they are two years, no stairs, keep the pup LEAN........most of this falls on deaf ears. People mean well, but do not realize how hard it is to keep the new pup out of the kitchen where it is slippery, not letting it upstairs, not taking it for walks in the neighborhood to show it off.
I am not saying that the owners caused the problem, but many help to make it worse.
There is a lot that can be done to manage HD in a medical way. Surgical intervention is also a consideration, though that might be for later. You would need to consult a Orthopedic Surgeon to see what they would want to do at his age.
Above all, the pup should be kept LEAN and not be subjected to all the above things like slippery conditions. Glucosamina/Chondroitin supplement will be helpful also.
Above all, read the contract provided by the breeder. They need to be contacted. There might be something spelled out in the contract about who does what.
Face it.....you are dealing with a GIANT breed. You have to know that there is NO WAY to guarantee a pup will be CHD free. NO WAY ON EARTH. We breed the best we can and do the best we can. That is all we can do. It will never be eliminated from the species.

To dispell some myths.....YES good breeders do give ONLY a two year hip guarantee. By two years, when OFA's can be done, you will know if the dog has severe CHD. A longer guarantee is not necessary. I have in the contract that the OFA's must be done by the 28th month. Then the guarantee is OVER for CHD.

ALSO........ Two "fair" dogs can produce a litter of "excellents" and two "excellent" dogs can produce an entire litter of crippled dogs. That is just how it goes. There is no way to determine what two dogs will produce. I have seen two dogs produce a litter that all cleared. Bred together again, same two dogs...the second litter one pup went "fair" the rest failed. This is not a science by any means.

Contact the breeder. The "two year" thing is one thing, but what is important at this point is what "remedy" is spelled out in the contract. They may be entiled to a refund, which they can apply to the cost of treating the dog. Sometimes the dog has to be very bad and be euthanized to get the refund/replacement pup. You need the DETAILS of the contract....not just that it is a two year guarantee. Generally, the breeder has spelled it out and that is what they get....nothing more, unless the breeder agrees to it. They signed the contract, so they agreed to the remedy provided in the contract.

Answer 2

I am not a breeder. I did get a Golden Puppy from a breeder and at 9 months of age found out he had Hip Displasia. There was not a 2 year Health Guarantee with my dog. I kept him any way. I loved him even with this problem.

I guess it depends on what the owners planned on doing with the dog. Had they planned on showing, breeding or what? Most people become attached and still choose to keep the dog. The dog must not be bred, but the Vet might choose to not neuter at this time for the purpose of weight gain. English Mastiffs are huge dogs. If the breeder is willing to take the dog back are the owners willing to give the dog back at this time?

Even with the best of lines there are no guarantees.
I would do the following if not already done. But sounds like some might have been.

1) Contact the Breeder and see what they have to say. They might be willing to assume some of the bills if surgery is needed.

2) Have an x-ray taken of the dogs hips.

3) Have the dog checked by an Orthopedic Vet. See what they reccomend.

4) Surgery is not always the best choice, or reccomended by Orthopedic Vets.

5) Keep him lean, so there is no added unnecisary weight gain.

6) Exercise, swimming is the best but not sure if English Mastiffs like to or can swim. Walking is good too.

7) No jumping or sudden turns when running.

8) Dog food with glucosamine or a dog food for large breed that has glucosamine in it.

Hope this helps. I will ask the question in my Dog group also.

Answer 3

It's hard to say without the entire contract, but I did notice that you said something to the effect of "replacement puppy OR full cash refund". Has this breeder offered a replacement puppy at no charge??? If she has, was this offer turned down?? If so, your friend may not have much recourse. It doesn't matter that your friend may not want another puppy from this breeder. This contract is very ambiguous at best and will probably be an uphill battle. Did the contract say anything about what would happen should the owner decide to keep the dog? The fact the your friend has chosen to keep the dog and have an expensive operation done is commendable; BUT it also tends to let the breeder off the hook. Ethically, the breeder should offer a full refund to help defray the expense on the surgery. Unfortunately, you can't change the way this breeder does business unless your friend is willing to go to court. I don't think I would cash the check until I had an attorney review the contract. I would also consider taking this to small claims court. I commend your friend for even having a "contract"; without one there wouldn't even be a discussion. But there is also a lesson here. Before you sign ANY contract spend a $100 and have it reviewed by your attorney. Quite often there are so many loop holes "written in"; that you may as well not even bother. A contract should spell out every single contingency in exact detail to be effective. The cleanest way to deal with this is directly with the breeder. Has your friend picked up the phone and said something like: "I'v decided to keep this puppy and have surgery on him. A full refund would be appreciated as this would help defray the expense of the surgery." If she has already tried the direct approach to no avail; then she needs to find an attorney. Good luck.

Answer 4

The two year guarantee should stipulate what options are available. The most common are:

1: Return the puppy and his papers for a replacement puppy;
2: Spay/Neuter the puppy, but keep it for the price of a pet puppy - the difference will be refunded; or
3: Euthanize the puppy, forward certificate of death from the vet along with the registration papers, and the price you paid for that puppy will be applied toward the purchase of another pup of better quality.

Some breeders even offer some money back guarantees - but not many.

All that said: OFA certification, even of "Excellent" on both the sire and the dam, is no guarantee [at all] that you will not get pups with bad hips; sadly, it happens.

Answer 5

It really depends on the breeders contract. If the breeder states they will take the dog back before a replacement puppy is given, they are not a good breeder. A good breeder will give you a replacement pup - if you want it. Some will pay for a second opinion on the x rays. If you live in CA, Newport Veterinary hospital, Newport Beach takes good x rays. Not all vets take them correctly, you can not make bad hips "good" but you can take a x ray that makes good hips look bad, especially if the dog is put to sleep during the procedure. Most likely, the breeder will just take note of it and if they are sure that diet and exercise were NOT contributing factors, they will eliminate the sire or dam from their breeding program, little consolation for your friend, but it will prevent this in the future.
The only support for the pup would be daily glucosamine, chrondroitin, vita e, fish oil caps (efas) and other natural supplementation. stay away from Rimadyl. it is poison. buffered, or enteric asprin can keep the dog comfortable. If the vet recommends surgery WAIT until the dog is fully developed around 2 before doing it. Otherwise the growth plates will continue to shift/grow and can cause a "re-do" on the surgery. Always get a second opinion. I had one dog, shaved, out and on table when we pulled it off (via phone), owners didn't let us know until they were in surgery, the dog did not have to have surgery... it was evaluated by our vet and has not had issues since, it was misdiagnosed, by incorrect x rays. It had panosteitis....

Were both parent's OFA'd? with passing results? if they were "fair" and bred anyway, it can go either way.
Even if both parents are excellent it still can happen. By the way, on the side of the breeder, sometimes a dog that has genetic predisposition to HD will not develop it depending on the diet. If they overfeed the dog, during the development it can exacerbate the tendencie to get HD or over excercise, (jumping, stairs, etc..). Most likely, it wasn't from that, but those things can bring it "out" more. If they did try to make him bulk up or fatten him up then that would highly contribute to the problem. It is always better to keep large breed pups on the thinner, not skinny side, a fat pup is asking for a problem later.
Sorry to hear about Solomon, but since he is young, wait on the surgery. If he is in misery, crating him part time, asprin/supplements will help. Eaglepack dog food for large breed pups is a good food. www.eaglepack.com


I would seriously doubt the breeder will help pay any vet bills long term. The breeder may pay for neutering, but beyond that any monies for bills would be simply a gift. It is a live animal and there are no true health guarantees other than monies back, which is rare, or a different puppy. Other than that, IF the breeder has bred more than 20 puppies in a calendar year they could be liable for the puppy lemon law in California, but you would have to contact a lawyer in that case. The bottom line is deciding if it is worth it to prolong the dog's misery (if it is that bad) or not. Treating it can cost thousands and there is no guarantee after surgery the dog will live a pain free quality life. It is a tough decision and suing someone is not the answer, unless they knowingly breed "defective" dogs and continue to do so. In that case, then whatever it takes to stop them from being puppy mills could well be in order.
Even with all the parent's cleared health, ofa's etc. there is always a chance that this will happen, it just does and unless the breeder knowingly keeps breeding defective dogs, it is not necessarily their "fault". Remember the environment, nutrition and amount of strenuous exercise can play a role no matter what the genes are.

Answer 6

Contact the breeder, if they guaranteed against hip displaysia they can either return the dog or ask for a refund.

Contact the breeder, they may refund all or a portion of the money. Is the dog being fed "large breed" dog food? If the people who purchased the dog accepts the offer from the breeder for a full or partial refund, the now owner would be responsible for the vet visits, etc.

Answer 7

It's hard to say what another breeder will do. Under my guarantee if they want to keep the pup or not is up to them. My only requirements are that the animal is neutered and that the registration is changed to "Limited" to remove the dog from the breeding and competition breed pool. They have the right to a replacement puppy either way.
Unfortunately HD happens, statistically it happens to 5% of dogs.
While the puppy having certified parents greatly reduces the odds, it does not eliminate the possibility. Also realize that often HD is environmental and not hereditary. Fat rolly-polly puppy equals dysplastic adult.

Undoubtedly someone on here will blame it on the dog being an "inbred purebred", and that is pure BS. The statistics for HD are the same for mongrel dogs as they are for purebred dogs.

Answer 8

YOU HAVE TO EXAMINE WHAT YOUR HEALTH CONTRACT STATES! READ IT OVER CAREFULLY.

HEALTH GARAUNTEES ARE REALLY THERE TO PROTECT THE BREEDER! THINK ABOUT IT DID YOU WRITE IT UP OR DID YOUR BREEDER WRITE IT UP.
IT IS TRAGIC FOR YOU! FOR THE BREEDER IT IS A PEACE OF MIND!

THEY ARE BASICLY HAVE EVERY CLAUSE THAT STATES IF THIS THIS OR THAT HAPPENS YOU CANT SUE THE BREEDER.

AND THAT IF A PROBLEM DOES ARRISE THAT RESULTED FROM A GENETIC FAULT. HIP DYPLASIA IS ONE OF THOSE FAULTS! WHAT COURSE OF ACTION WILL BE TAKEN.
USUALLY MOST GENETIC PROBLEMS ARE NOT UNCOVERED AND DO NOT ARRISE BEFORE A YEAR OF AGE. AND ANY THAT ARRISE AFTER THAT ARE NO LONGER COVERED BY THE GAURANTEE. MOST PPL DON'T KNOW THAT THOUGH.

THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE CONTRACTS. TO LET THE BREEDERS OFF THE HOOK FOR ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING AND IN THE RARE CASE LIKE YOURS THAT SOMETHING SHOULD ARISE BEFORE A YEAR OF AGE IT MUST BE PROVEN AND IF IT IS PROVEN AND DOES NOT AFFECT THE LIFE OF THE DOG YOU ARE SOL.
MOST BREEDERS FEEL THAT THEY HAVE DONE ALL THEY CAN TO PROVIDE THE BEST QUALITY OF DOG HOWEVER IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PROTECT AGAINST EVERYTHING AND LIKE HUMANS DOGS HAVE SICKNESSES TOO. IF YOU HAD ADOPTED A HUMAN BABY WITH THIS THIS OR THAT GENETIC PROBLEM AND WE ALL HAVE THEM YOU WOULD NOT SEND IT BACK. SAME LIKE WISE WITH DOGS YOU TOOK IT INTO YOUR FAMILY FOR BETTER OR WORSE IT IS YOURS YOUR NEW BABY PLEASE LOVE IT ANYWAY SOMEONE HAS TOO WHY NOT YOU.THERE ARE NO GAURANTEES IN LIFE **** HAPPENS.
I MAKE EVERYONE SIGN ONE OR THE PUP DOES NOT LEAVE MY HOME!
BUT IF YOU FAX A LEGAL LETTER TO THE BREEDER WITH YOUR VETS ANALYSIS AND OFFER THE BREEDER THE RIGHT TO ALLOW HER VET TO EXAMINE THE PUP SHE MAY PROVIDE YOU A REPLACEMENT PUP OR YOUR MONEY BACK HER CHOICE THAT IS WHAT THOSE CONTRACTS USUALLY STATE.
AS MAD AND ANGRY AS THAT MAY MAKE EVERYONE OUT THERE THAT IS THE HONEST TRUTH OF THE HEALTH CONTRACTS. IF HTEY ARE DONE UP PROPERLY AND AIR TIGHT. YOU AGREED TO IT WHEN YOU BOUGHT YOUR PUPPY.
THE BREEDER DOES OT WANT TO LOSE THE SHIRT OFF HIS BACK BECAUSE HE SOLD YOU A PUPPY.
THE THING WITH CONTRACTS IS THAT THEY ARE A LEGAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN TWO PARTYIES AND THEY STAND UP IN COURT.
IF YOU APPROACH YOUR BREEDER REASONABLLY AND NICELY SHE WILL PROBALLY STAND BEHIND HER DOGS. SHE DID NOT INTENTIOANLLY BREED A DOG WITH A GENETIC PROBLEM!
I WOULD SAY DON'T ATTACK OR PISS YOUR BREEDER OFF AND SHE WILL BE FINE TO YOU!

Answer 9

No responsible/reputable breeder would give only a two year hip guarantee. You can have hips screened earlier (prescreened), but it doesn't even count until age two! So, that breeder might have had champion lines and the right answers...but he/she wasn't responsible. Did the owner even get the sire's and dam's OFA numbers? Ask your friend what their registered names are, I think you can look them up online to see if they've been tested and the results. (BTW, I find it no accident that the guarantee ends when the true screening starts. That's awful!)

OFA: http://www.offa.org/

Responsible Breeder: http://www.geocities.com/fps_turtle/breedercomp.html
http://www.katewerk.com/guarantee.html

ETA: Those giving thumbs down, are you breeders who use this so-called guarantee to *seem* responsible? It's NOT! The guarantee should be a lifetime, but at least last until after official testing can be done and results are back. Anything less, is evading responsibility. Would you buy a house today that couldn't be looked at/inspected for two years...the same moment the guarantee ends? HD happens (won't argue that), but if you're going to offer a guarantee don't make it worthless. Give them time... Seriously, what is wrong with even giving 2.5 years???

Answer 10

Champion lines, parental OFA (hip/elbow clearances) and a guarantee lesson the incidence of hip dysplasia but do not eliminate it.

The guarantee should have some monetary return if the pup is found to be dysplastic. And/or it may have a return/replacement policy.

Please know, mild to moderate hip dysplasia can be treated quite well at that early an age. They need to speak with a veterinary orthopedist.

You'll also want to pass on to them that they need to keep the dog as close to underweight as possible and they may wish to hold off nuetering so as not to exacerbate the problem (long bones continue to grow if not stopped by the hormones of puberty. large breeds of dogs should not be nuetered at less than 2 years of age)

Years ago I bought a dog to train as a Service Dog. He was from Champion lines, complete guarantee, great hip records etc... fantastically smart dog. I did a hip pre-lim on him at 9 mos and he was found to be moderately dysplastic. I placed him with my sister who kept him very lean, did moderate exercise and loved the heck out of him. He never showed signs of the dysplasia until he was 8 years old at which time she began treating him with painkillers (aspirin as needed.. and eventually with time adequan) He had a full life until he was nearly 11. His aunt and several uncles who were not dysplastic also lived until they were 11-12.

Feel free to email me if you want more info. You can look up changes in the incidences of hip dysplasia by breed at www.offa.org

EDIT: Oh fer pete's sake!! What on earth did I say that warranted a thumbs down???