CHRISTIANS -- -- In 2 Kings 2:23-24, does it matter whether the taunters were "children" or "young adults"?

Question

Here's how it's translated in the KJV:

23) And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24) And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

And here's how it's translated in the NIV:

23) From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!"

24) He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

I've gotta know... does it REALLY matter whether these "youths" were "children" (roughly ages 5-12) or "young adults: (roughly ages 13-17)?

I mean, in the end, they died a terrifying, excruciating, horrible death because they made fun of a guy for being bald. Does it REALLY matter if they were "kids" your "young adults"? Does the punishment fit the crime more or less according to age?

User "notfooled", I'm asking whether it matters that they're "children" or "young adults". Does it makes their deaths more acceptable if they're a bit older rather than a bit younger? I've had several people tell me that these passages and this event wasn't so bad because it wasn't CHILDREN who died, it was YOUNG ADULTS. So I'm wondering... does that distinction even matter??

User wolfe, so.... if you're old enough and you're in the wrong place saying the wrong thing to the wrong person, you deserve to be mauled to death by bears?

I see.

wolfeblayde, well, now that you've disallowed the "Email Other Users" functions, I can't contact you personally. So you're accusing me of asking this question in an attempt to attack Christians with ridicule, contempt, & derision? I wanted to know the opinion of Christians in regards to an excerpt from their holy text. I don't like the content of the excerpt as it deals with murder in response to, go figure, mockery. But asking for a consensus view on a text that I don't happen to like isn't what I consider an "attack".

And though the OT may represent an "outdated culture", it IS a part of the Bible, is it not? It's there for a reason, is it not? It's part of the "good book", the end-all, be-all, ultimate spiritual insight into the heart of God, is it not? If it's so important and if these certain passages are part of that, then is there something wrong with asking Christians about what they feel about it? Apparently there is if you feel this kind of questioning is an "attack".

Why is it that whenever The Bible describes "appropriate" punishments for, say, mocking God or same-sex intimacy or adultery, it's a "history book" reflecting the ways of the time & place & we shouldn't concern ourselves with it's harsh & deplorable nature (even though I don't know of any "history book" which said "and then [insert group here] was smited by the Lord"), but when it comes to mostly the rest of the book, it's considered an infallible, holy word of God that needs to be understood through "the spirit" & not examined through the lenses of the literal?

No, I don't want history rewritten. I just want to know when a holy book is a holy book & when a history book is a history book, & what reason(s) might exist to entwine the two.

If the bear attack really happened, then it happened. Regardless of the place & time, God chose to send bears to tear to shreds 42 people (of various possible ages). God did that, & I doubt he bends his will based on a certain place & time.

Oh, by the way, I don't intend to "tar and feather" the entire religion. I don't know where that came from.

wolfeblayde:

1) Like I said, even if the Bible is part sacred text and part history book, how does that change the fact that God had 42 children / young adults / people mauled by bears? You simply mention that they were older than "child age", not WHY it matters.

2) I don't joke about killing Christians or wanting them to die, so you can take that accusation and toss it out the window.

3) You may consider abortion murder, but I don't. I didn't bother to comment on it because that would be treating your red herring as a legitimate objection.

It's too bad you opted to "play victim" here. I was hoping you weren't one of the people who treated "questioning" as "attacking"... too bad.

Answer 1

I was studying this passage some weeks ago and came across like this: "The next out-of-the-ordinary (well, out of our ordinary) event we see in 2 Kings 2 occurs when Elisha is going toward Bethel and several "little children" come out of Bethel and mock Elisha. The story of Elijah being raised to heaven in a whirlwind has probably made the rounds by this time, and the children (keep in mind being a teenager or an adolescent is a relatively recent definition, so the "little children" wandering out of their home city were probably closer to fifteen or sixteen years old) were, in evidence of the sometimes strained relationship between the prophets of Israel and the people, were calling on Elijah in verse twenty-three to "Go up, thou bald head". Since Elijah "went up" and hadn't been seen, people who weren't there probably thought he'd died and -- in eight years, I'm sure Elisha had built up a reputation too and wasn't universally liked (but is anybody?) -- were saying Elisha could die too. Don't get me started on the bald jokes . . .

"And [Elisha] turned back, and looked on them, and cursed [the children] in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two of them." Verse twenty-four taken incredibly out of context sounds like a great object lesson when some members of your youth group are being jerks or your own kids are out of line, but THIS IS IMPORTANT: don't curse anybody in God's name unless you really mean it and are prepared to deal with consequences! Anyone going up against someone truly acting in the will of God will ultimately lose. Perhaps it won't be as dramatic a fall as being torn up by a bear (and probably dying from it; Scripture isn't clear on that), but it will be total and it will be final because God's orchestrated it. By mocking Elisha, the children were also mocking the God Elisha served, and it needed to be shown that wouldn't be tolerated. We shouldn't tolerate it ourselves. "

Sorry for being long-winded, but the point with KJV's reference to "little children" versus NIV's "youths" is that the ones mocking Elijah had already reached the age where they knew full well what they were saying. A child who's parroting his parents' negative comments won't be held accountable by the same standard. When we refer to youths today, we most often think of teenagers who do have a developed moral sense -- not good or bad, just moral -- and are liable for the consequences of their actions. Children -- and when the KJV was written, there was no distinct adolescent stage, you were a child and then an adult -- carries a different connotation, so it DOES make a difference who's doing the taunting, but both terms refer to the same age group.

Answer 2

It does seem to be a very cruel thing to do. I mean they were just mocking him. He could have turned around,said a few wise words and told them to watch their ways and made them consider becoming better people.
The old testament is a mystery to me sometimes.
It goes from roar to purr as a friend of mine would say.

Answer 3

1

Answer 4

See? It makes perfect sense and is very moral when you find out they were mocking the OFFICE! Natually it's moral to kill kids who mock an office like that!

You should see what He had to do when people made fun of the office of Reverand that Ted Haggard used to enjoy!

Answer 5

I am so disgusted by the answers here my heart is palpitating. I popped online for a moment and was just about to go to sleep and then I saw your question that led me here. These people are SICK. You really got the lot of 'em this time- I'd love to see how they'd react if their children disobeyed them one day (whether scribbling on the walls with marker or not making curfew) and a bear came and ripped that poor child to shreds while they watched. Then again, I shouldn't have to wonder how they would react, I already know. It would be the divine judgment, the "test" from God, and they would bear it as did Job. NOT. How many would actually continue to believe? How many would strive even deeper into the dementededness of their religon? These people are going to destroy the world one day. I just removed Wolfeblayde as a contact; I never did quite trust her. It seemed the 'group' did so I figured she must be alright. I should have listened to my gut. Next time I won't be such a sheep.

The people that have responded here are out to destroy the world because the fictional heaven they've created is so exorbitantly glamorized that they have lost of all their humanity. Who cares if a homosexual is killed? It was God's will. Who cares if we destroy the world? It's time to go on up to Heaven! These people will never actually live and we cannot allow them to annihilate the rest of us. Keep spreading the good word, baby. You help lift the veil from these vile and careless characters and expose their true nature. I imagine that the answers here upset you just as much as they upset me. You are doing a great service to the world by not giving up and giving in to their psychobabble.

Hail Atlantis!


EDIT: Perhaps you're right Wolfeblayde, perhaps I chose you as a contact after you answered a few of my questions on homosexuality with some semblance of dignity and fairness. What's the difference? My statement still holds true. I don't care if it's the OT or the NT, you are STILL in agreement that children should be tortured to death for taking your punishing, evil God's name in vain. That, to me, is despicable. Get real. There is nothing factual in stating that they 'had it coming' to them. That is your opinion, and a very "unstable" opinion at that. You write: "What was acceptable then (slavery, for example) is no longer a part of anyone's beliefs and practices -- much less mine or any other Christian's." Are you kidding me? Your religion still practices the laws of the Old Testament. If it were up to many of you homosexuals wouldn't be citizens, slavery would most definitely STILL be practiced (look at your Christian warlords in other countries), or how recently slavery was still practiced predominantly by Christians. Leviticus and Deuteronomy are still ever-present in our modern society. You act as if O.T. laws aren't a part of Jesus' law yet still opine that children deserve to be tortured to death (though it's more 'OK' if the victims are in their 20s) for mocking your version of God. In your OPINION you write that Paganism is a "false religion" and condone the murder of Pagans. Who are YOU to tell us what a 'false religion' is? You have just mocked every Pagan and in that sense, every non-Christian in the world. Your post stopped being factual once you gave your opinion. Frothing at the mouth is something attributable to those who wish only to destroy and them blame the consequences on others. My belief that disallowing people like you to push Armageddon on the rest of us isn't "frothing at the mouth", it is simple humanity. There are a number of Christians I know here who don't believe at all as you do - I have these Christians as contacts and consider them true friends and true followers of Christ. They may not like to see their God's name taken in vain but they certainly would never deign to say that ANYONE deserves to be smited or tormented for it. They believe in Jesus' gospel of tolerance and love.

If you think Zero's question is in ANY way designed to mock Christians or be contemptuous you are very sadly mistaken. She is asking what you believe is right or wrong in relation to a passage that Christians still hold claim to (don't give me the 'We don't follow the OT' drivel as many of your fellow Christians, INCLUDING yourself, have because it's plainly false). She asked for a consensus from the Christian community. You admitted with clarity that you felt this passage was righteous. To act as if you were just 'telling us all' what the passage said is nonsense. Zero Cool had already done that in her post; why would you repeat her verbatim? Your post, your judgments, and your arrogance are careless and dangerous. I hope one day you can see the light; I really did believe you were a person of some insight and dignity or I never would have made you a contact. (O, and my greatest apologies for thinking you had asked me, how cruel and and thoughtless of me). That you should wish your bears upon Zero, myself, and everyone else who fights for freedom is proof of your ignorance and your disdainful elitism. What a downright shame.

Answer 6

The thing is you don't really know the whole story. It sounds like a youth gang. They can be pretty cold blooded and who says they did not mean him harm. It was taught to very young children in that society to respect prophets of God.
If they were doing that it was probably a youth gang that deserved to die;. Remember that many of the young suicide bombers in Iraq are teenagers. Hitler and his men were actually a youth gang when they started.
We have the bloods and the crypts in Los Angele's who kill and destroy and are very vicious. Most youth gangs can and are very cruel and destructive. I feel certain that this prophet was not the first one to be intimidated by this youth gang.

Answer 7

We live by faith and we die by logic, there must be some error in between.

Answer 8

They where young men-local louts, yelling abuse at the prophet.

Answer 9

That's awesome.

The question, I mean, not the kids dying part.

Answer 10

Since they were mocking Elisha, a prophet of God, they were in turn mocking God. They were in Israelite territory and would have know better than to mock God. wah hoo it's coming again and the carnage will be great. You nonbelievers, you don't really get it do you? Your children are going to suffer the same fate as you because children are like their parents and will have to be removed too, your going to be blood guilty for your own children. I don't care if you don't like what I say, you need to wake up to the truth to have any hope for yourselves and your children. You may not believe in God and what he says in his word, but what are you going to say to your children when Armageddon arrives and you realize you messed up and it's too late?