Jehovah's Witnesses..In Rev. it talks about the 12 tribes..12,000 from each tribe?

Question

wouldn't it make more sense that the 144,000 that are going to heaven be the 12, 000 from each of those tribes?

Answer 1

Is there any listing (even one) of the twelve tribes of literal Israel which uses the listing given at Revelation 7:5-8?

No.

Revelation's listing is given thusly:
...(Revelation 7:5-8) 'Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin'


Revelation's listing CONTRASTS with the first listing of the twelve tribes of literal Israel. That was given by the patriarch Israel (Jacob) himself, using the names of his twelve sons:
...(Genesis 49:3-28) Reuben...5 Simeon and Levi...8 ...Judah...13 Zebulun...14 Issachar...16 Dan...19 As for Gad...20 Out of Asher... 21 Naphtali...22 ...Joseph... 27 Benjamin...28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel


Revelation's listing also CONTRASTS with the tribes as they were established in the Promised Land. For reasons explained during the lifetimes of Israel's sons (the original tribal heads), the tribe of Joseph was given the "double portion" and each of Joseph's sons was elevated to become a full tribe (see Genesis 48:1-6 and 1 Chronicles 5:1,2), since Levi would concentrate on priestly duties. At that, the twelve tribes of literal Israel were listed thusly:
...(Numbers 1:4-15) One man to a tribe... 5 ...Of Reuben...6 of Simeon...7 of Judah...8 of Issachar...9 of Zebulun...10 ...of Ephraim...of Manasseh...11 of Benjamin...12 of Dan...13 of Asher...14 of Gad...15 of Naphtali


The bible offers no explanation why the literal tribal names would ever be changed again, prior to the writing or fulfillment of Revelation. Frankly, there is no reason or purpose behind doing so, for the tribal identities of all Jews were lost when Jerusalem's temple was destroyed (that destruction was decades BEFORE the penning of Revelation). No Jew today has any idea what his tribal heritage might be, and even the Jews in the apostle John's day could not prove their specific genealogy.

Frankly, the listing at Revelation chapter 7 seems to have been selected specifically to indicate that this is NOT literal Israel !
Note that the tribe of Dan is NEVER excluded from any other tribal listing, and note that it is inconsistent for Revelation to list Manasseh AND Joseph (Joseph was Manasseh's father, while Ephraim was Manasseh's brother).


Does the bible ever teach that the term "Israel" can refer to Christians rather than Jews? Yes, many times. The bible clearly teaches that Christianity would replace Judaism as the approved form of worship, and those initial Christians would all be part of a new Christian entity called "the Israel of God".

...(Galatians 6:15-16) For neither is circumcision [that is, the former requirements of Judaism] anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is something. And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.

...(Romans 9:6-26) It is not as though the word of God had failed [in that Judaism became invalid]. For not all who spring from [literal] Israel are really “Israel” ...8 That is, the children in the flesh [literal descendants of Jacob/Israel] are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed. ...22 If, now, God, although having the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known...called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, what of it? 25 It is as [God] says also in Hosea: “Those not [Jewish] people I will call ‘my people,’


So does the bible ever refer to "the twelve tribes" when the writer seems quite plainly to be actually referring to the Christian congregation? Yes.

...(James 1:1-2;2:1) James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes that are scattered about: Greetings! Consider it all joy, my brothers...My brothers, you are not holding the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, our glory, with acts of favoritism, are you?


There can be sincere disagreement among Christians about whether the number "144,000" is literal or not, but it seems much less debatable about whether the Christian Scriptures (such as Revelation 7:4) repeatedly discuss literal Israel or instead the Christian "Israel of God" (that is, spiritual Israel).

Learn more:
http://watchtower.org/e/20041001/article_01.htm

Answer 2

At Romans 11:25-26a, "until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved."

The full number indicates that there is a specific number that must be filled, does it not?

Of course, when Paul says "all Israel will be saved," he was not referring to fleshly Israel, but rather the Israel of God that he made mention of at Galatians 6:16.

And that is really the key to understanding the 144,000, because in Revelation it refers to 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel composing the full number of 144,000. Christendom's blind clerics say that that refers to literal Israel. That's because they have no conception of what the Israel of God actually is.

It is lost on them that Jesus Christ instituted a spiritual nation that replaced physical Israel. Jesus even referred to his congregation as a nation at Matthew 21:43. In fact, that is why Jesus picked 12 apostles, because they replaced the 12 sons of Israel that became fathers of the 12 tribes.

That is why the letter of James opens with the Christian salutation: "To the twelve tribes that are scattered about: Greetings!" It would be a complete repudiation of everything the apostles taught if we were to imagine that James was addressing the twelve tribes of fleshly Israel. So, that proves that the 12,000 from the 12 tribes are actually a symbolic representation of the complete organization of anointed spiritual Israelites.

Answer 3

Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Answer 4

"The listing here is not for the purpose of identifying fleshly Jews by their tribes but to show a similar organizational structure for spiritual Israe." Revelation 5:9,10 says: And they sing a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, ... and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Jesus bought persons with his blood out of every tribe, EVERY TONGUE (every languages), EVERY PEOPLE (all sorts of skin color people), EVERY NATION (every country) not just one literal nation of Israel, or one language spoken people. The kingdom of God is made up of these 144,000 anoited ones (humans) with Jesus being anointed as King by Jehovah to rule over the earth during that thousand years. After the thousand years, he turn the kingdom over to his Father, Jehovah.

Answer 5

Rom 2:28, 29 tells us that the Christian congregation are the 'Jews' today.

Those who go to heaven are kings and priests,

Does the saying 'To many chiefs and not enough indians' mean anything to you?

If Rev 7 is listing literal Israel, then why did Jesus make a mistake?

Jesus added Levi and Joseph, and left out Dan and Ephriam.

.

Answer 6

In Revelation, the 144 thousand already dwell in heaven. This is the Jewish nation, not the white Europeans which later became Christianity. The "anointed" of the JWs are pretty thick headed if they think they are part of that class. They are like thieves in sheeps clothing.

Answer 7

Well if you read more of that you will see that most of who is saved during Tribulation is the Jews.

Answer 8

Actually, the 144,000 are Jewish.

Answer 9

they cant help it they are like a cult you know. that number for them has changed a few times .