What can you say to refute this logic?

Question

Ok. I am a Calvinist, meaning I believe in the 5 point TULIP theory.
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed." Acts 13: 48

In this verse look what happened first. Because they were appointed for eternal life, they were saved. See if an anti-Calvinist can explain that.

I believe that it is God who saves us, He died on the cross and at that point in time he saved our sins.

Some people believe that God died on the cross for our sins, but that we have a choice to accept him or not. By that logic our sins are not forgiven until we accept him. Then, who's action is forgiving your sins? Yours, or God's? If you believe that then you are limiting what happened on the Cross. You can't say that God forgave your sins on the cross, and you have to chose whether to accept him or not. It's 1 or the othe

Answer 1

I can refute you, completely and utterly, with two simple words:

Says You.

Answer 2

Is this another, "It doesn't matter what I do, I'm saved (or not saved) already, so actions don't change anything"?

I hate those. First off for the arrogance of thinking that an eternal omnipotent being would actually care about individuals more than group well-being. Second because it's a great excuse to not have to ever move outside your comfort zone to help others or behave in a selfless manner.

Oh, well. It's your faith, not mine. Good luck!

Answer 3

The "who's action is forgiving your sins" argument is really weak. If God gave you the ability to choose good or evil, and you choose good, then the actions of BOTH are allowing you to be forgiven. God is still a necessary component. If God created us, whether or not we have free will or are predestined is irrelevant to this argument. In fact, I think it is YOUR argument that is limiting what Christ did on the cross. You are placing a limitation on God that says that he is incapable of sharing his glory, or unable to give us the ability to choose for ourselves. In fact, if we DO have the ability to play a role in what happens to us, that makes Christ's sacrifice MORE valuable and limitless. It shows that he was willing to make that sacrifice for us, even though many of us will not make the right choice.

Also, cherry-picking one verse out of the Bible and taking it out of context to prove your point is hardly a good argument in favor of anything. In any case, that verse has been interpreted in many different ways. For example, some Bibles use the word "ordained" instead of "appointed." Ordained can mean to predestine, it is true, but it can also mean to invest authority. That potentially changes the meaning of that verse drastically. Even the word "appointed" can have multiple meanings, and does not necessitate that everyone is predestined. It can simply be a means of identifying these people who CHOSE to be saved as being successful, and it does not necessarily exclude others who may later choose to be saved. For that matter, it does not even necessarily exclude other paths to salvation. What if EVERYONE is predestined to salvation? Then what does "predestine" even mean? Is it even significant? Many people would argue not.

That is not to say you are wrong, but rather that this is far from a complete argument either way. One verse by itself out of context does not mean a thing.

Answer 4

He died on the cross to save us and to allow us the opportunity to have eternal life -- he saved people from sins already committed and for any sin that would flow forever. We need to go to him and confess our sin, accept that we are responsible for the sins we committed, ask for the forgiveness from our sins, and that Jesus will come into our hearts and give us eternal life. We know we are a new person, re-born, and that we must go forward from that point attempting to sin no more. We also know, however, that we will still fall short and we will continue to need the Lord's forgiveness for our imperfection; we strive to become better. Finally, we know that no matter how good we are we cannot 'earn' our way into heaven and eternal life. It is a gift.

Answer 5

Romans 10:13 says those that call on the Name of the Lord will be saved. This shows we need to at least do this. I don't really follow your logic.
1Tin2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
God wants all to be saved. If he "made us be saved" then all would. So free will, on mans part, must enter in

Answer 6

Personally I am a 4 point Calvinists. So I would not try and refute you except on limited atonement. 1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Answer 7

THe verse you quote also states 'appointed'. Jesus already knew at the moment he died who would accept and who would reject.
But He still did His part. We need to still do ours and believe, repent, and receive. Scripture also states that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. I still sin even though I am saved. I believe this logic of yours should be discussed with someone like your pastor or elders/deacons.
They should be able to answer.

Answer 8

While "Lion of Judah" said most of it, and very well, I might add (congrats), there are other arenas wherein you err and your logic fails you.

A) Jesus Himself said, "I, if I be lifted up (a well-known euphemism at the time for crucifixion) will lift ALL men unto me." Either He was lying through His teeth or He was talking like a genuine nutball OR He is who He says He is and therefore what He says IS! There is NO way to square that flat-footed statement with "predestinarianism" (Calvinism)! Period.

B) The whole fallacy of classic Calvinism rests on a fundamental ignorance of the differences between time and eternity, between knowledge and action. To know is NOT akin to to do. Eternity is NOT time. It is wholly outside of and completely encompassing of time. There is no past, no future in eternity. Only the now.

C) Classic Calvinism also misses the boat on the very concept of sin and the original fall from grace. "In Adam's fall we sinn'd all" is not only poor poetry and worse imagery, it is dead wrong! It is the stain of original sin that causes the need for salvation. It was the loss of the preternatural gifts, including life with God in heaven that Adam's sin lost for all his descendants. It lost us the ability to withstand temptation and caused us to be more vulnerable to Satan's fell designs. It did nothing about individual worthiness or unworthiness. It merely made being worthy a heckuva lot harder. Jesus solves that problem through baptism by "grafting" us into Himself. His death and resurrection restore the preternatural gift of life with God in heaven. The sacrifice, made as it was by a Being who is both true man and true God and therefore both us and eternal and infinite, satisfies for everything.

D) God's salvific action on the cross, done by a Being who is both infinite and eternal, obtains total forgiveness for ALL sins committed by everyone throughout time. It's a fait accompli. In time it happened 2,000 years ago. But because the Being who accomplished it is eternal it also happened right now, this very moment. YOU ARE FORGIVEN! PERIOD. All you have to do is say thank you and accept it! (The "Thank you" part is simple courtesy. Surely you have enough manners to say "Thank you" for a gift.) You did nothing to earn it. You did nothing to deserve it. It's a freebie, freely available to all who want it.

E) The most profound error in classic Calvinism is their insistence on a God of vengeance when Jesus Himself is the clearest evidence possible that in fact He is a God of love!

F) On a more personal note, I bet you get your rocks off re-reading Jonathan Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". If so, then run, do not walk, to the nearest shrink. You need help...of the professional kind!

G) In conclusion, God; as exemplified by His Son and that Son's reported actions and words while among us, is either the loving Father who cares for us beyond all human understanding and reason, OR He is a cast-iron SOB whom no one in their right mind would associate with for anything! (See E)
Calvinism would have you accept that God's ultimate nature is both good and evil. Therefore Calvinism is a cowardly form of Zoroastrianism, where at least the believers will admit to the existence of TWO divine beings, each separate from the other and totally at odds with one another. So, Calvinists, either be honest and convert to Zoroastrianism or convert to Christianity and be saved.

Answer 9

I think the bible shows we have Free will which is the opposite of predestination IMHO.
Also if predestination is true why would God allow so many to be born and never have the chance of salvation? And does one that's predestined really need to hear the gospel, need to repent or be baptized? why if they are already pre-chosen?

I wonder if we were all predestined to be saved but by rejecting God was are lost.
Look at Revelation

3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

question; Are those who reject Jesus and do not over come have their names blotted out of the book of life?

Answer 10

Salvation comes at death, simply saying that one is saved I don't think works to well. Do I believe that Jesus lived and died for my sins, yes. But have I led a good enough life to receive salvation? Only my death can answer that.

Answer 11

Let's understand why Jesus went up on the cross. Before Jesus died for mankind we were all on our way to hell. Do not stop and collect $50.00 go straight to hell.

Because of God's divine love for us he decided to spare those of us who were willing to accept and follow him. Now since he has given us free will we don't have to follow him and so we remain in our sin which means we're still on that bus heading for hell. If we are willing to say "Jesus I know I don't deserve heaven but I accept your grace and mercy as my Lord and Savior, God is saying I'm going to accept you and forget all your sins-not because of you but because of what my son did for you.