Re; The unlawful killing of Jean Charles DeMenenzes.?

Question

After 2 years of lies and coverup in the case of Jean Charles DeMenenzes unlawful killing by anti-terrorist police on the London underground it seems the truth might now be emerging with the acknowledgement that he was neither dressed in a jacket potentially concealing a bomb, did not run or jump over a barrier, and was not challenged by police before being summarily executed by police on a London underground train. He was an innocent man sitting on a train reading a paper on his way to work.

Written statements made by the police at that time totally contradict the facts which indicate a deliberate attempt to coverup their incompetence, unlawful killing hence deliberatley perverting the course of justice.

Of the months of surveilance and so called intelligence reports and the eleven officers involved how could something like this happen, and why has no one been brought to task for his death. It could not have been simply a trajic mistake.

Incompetence or cavalier policing?

Should Andy Hayman, head of the anti terrorist squad be sacked I believe he should. What do you think/

PG; you are absolutely correct.

Capt Stsrk: Get in the real world, you are a definite if, but, or maybe gay Liberal. Take a course on lateral thinking and discernment.

Barrowman: You state the obvious and you are right about Blair and Bush but remember we can't change the world, but we can influence it by example!

Retrospectively the facts are known, but I am truly amazed that some answers demonstrate a callous disregard for the life of this innocent young man. There can be no excuses for what happened or for the lack of action taken against the police in the matter.

Support for the police in such a case only serves to highlight the clandestine nature of such an organisation prepared to pervert the course of justice in mitigation of exposed incompetence.

People need to recognise the police are not above the law and should be subject to prosecution for crimes committed by incompetence. It is accepted by the police that ignorance of the law is no excuse, so why the hypocrisy??

Mike H, are you a natural born tosser or are you a graduate in the subject. You are typical of the morons this country can do without.

Answer 1

First of all I would like to say that I acknowledge that the death of this man was tragic and that terrible mistakes were made which led to his death.

This came at a time when the state of alert was at an all time high. We had already been subjected to a new breed of terrorist in the UK and only the previous day had been subject to failed bomb attempts.

The senior commanders are ultimately to blame for the death of this man. They had overall control of this incident. It does not help them however if the surveillance carried out was not as good as it should have been. After all they have to make decisions based on what they know and believe. They then have to live with that decision be it good or bad.

In terms of the firearms officers they also have to carry out lawful orders. They would have been given clear instructions as to what was required. We cannot deal with terrorists like normal members of the public. Shout a challenge at a terrorist and is he/she going to give themselves up.... no, they are going to blow themselves up taking anyone nearby with them. They have immediate access to the detonator. Shooting them at close range and without warning is the only way of preventing the device going off. More than one shot would be required to prevent any chance of detonation. This would account for the head shots as opposed to the normal body shot.

Yes I understand that this man was not a terrorist but the officers did not know that. They were led to believe that he was. What would the public have said if this man had been a terrorist and had killed innocent men, women and children. Would it have been "Police followed terrorist and failed to take action." There would have been an even bigger outcry.

Yes, make no bones about it the police are to blame, but likewise so are the terrorists who live in this country and preach their hate. They were the ones that killed 52 innocent people and injured hundreds more. They were the ones that instigated the way we should deal with that kind of threat.

Answer 2

It's been established by the IPCC that this Assistant Commissioner Andy Hayman lied to his boss about the circumstances of the incident. So, either there was something done wrong by officers on the ground and Hayman was trying to protect them by lying, or the department was more concerned with presenting its image in the best possible light rather than getting straight to the truth. Either way up there has been an attempt to deceive the public and pervert the reporting procedure within the police organisation.

The police will probably be fined according to a news report that I linked elsewhere in these forums earlier. I say this is not enough - there should be prosecutions made at the level where the rot is found to have originated, be it of the on-the-ground officers involved in the shooting or the senior personnel who tried to mislead their superiors. I cannot see how the public can maintain any trust in the police if this is not done. It would, effectively, open the way for any uniformed police officer to kill anyone at all and safely walk away without punishment or accountability. Certain older people may remember what that kind of policing leads to.

The UK police are being given more and more powers. Accountability must be seen to be in place in direct proportion to those increases.

To those above who screamed "Nanny State!" as a matter of reflex I ask: Police State or Nanny State, which would you *prefer* to live in?

I've reposted the link for those who missed it in the other forum.

Answer 3

I think you will find that corruption is also a word to be associated with this farce. Undoubtedly, the Police were incompetant but why does everyone assume they are gonna be any different from any other organisation? The NHS shields itself under a blanket of beaurocracy and lies and, like the Police, have the piss poor government to cover for them.
This country is more interested in doing what they think is right rather than doing what is right. The police should just hold their hands up to this one and eat humble pie rather than make excuses and then rely on the government to defend them.
Tony Blairs Britain consists of cover-up's, red tape and ridiculous little laws that mean nothing.
What we have learnt from this is that an innocent man died because of this countries obsession with terrorism which is down to the fact that Tony Blair decided to get into bed with that idiot George Bush.
Do the government or Police care that they have destroyed the life of a hard working, innocent, individual? I don't think they do, and this is what we should be remembering; the fact that we are small little pawns who can be moved around the board of life to generate tax, upon tax, upon tax.
The government are secretly pleased when someone dies at 59 because they haven't got to fork out for a pension. As far as this young Brazilian was concerned the government aren't bothered because they believed he would move back to Brazil once he had earnt a crust and therefore pay his taxes in South America.

Answer 4

Jean Charles DeMenenzes was a victim of the London Bombings as much as the other victims, Do not go after the Police for trying to defend the Capital, after all they are easy targets for anyone with a gripe. Written statements from witnesses to any event will contradict each other that is a fact. While we all hope the Truth will come out and it will. but the Truth is not helped by rants such as yours and spinning of little bits of information not the Whole. If you want to blame anyone for is death blame Radial Islam.

Answer 5

It amazes me that after two years and innumerable reports and enquiries discrediting the police version of events leading up to the de Menezes killing on the Tube train there are still people who profess to believe it !. It was interesting to see Red Ken jump to the defence of the Met Police. This from a man who for years denigrated the police at every opportunity. As is usual with police shootings that go wrong no one is ever to blame unless it's some poor police constable at the bottom of the chain. Like Pontious Pilate the senior officers wash their hands of responsibility and get promoted as well.

Answer 6

Tell you what, why don't all the members of the anti terrorist squads, the police, the armed response units and the military all just hand their sidearms in and go home?

They obviously can't do their jobs withouyt some liberal idiot calling them murderers and criminals.

So why don't they leave all the terrorists and criminal scum to wreak as much havok as they want on your liberal society. Anyone can walk into a public place with a gun and just let off a few rounds now, there is noone to stop them. How about terrorists who just decide to walk around freely with as many explosives/dirty bombs/bio weapons as they like? Oh wait, there is noone to stop them now either.

Idiot.

Answer 7

Look , the Police did NOT tell lies , they just forgot to tell the truth

As for calling the police incompetent , this might be your view , others just think they are useless

And as for anyone being held to account , forget it , that's never going to happen , dispite everything the police are there to inforce the law , and as the legal system is corrupt , they will not allow the police to take a fall for there own failings

Answer 8

This was an awful episode - no-one can be proud of their actions on that day.
I do think his parents should just drop it though. They are brought over here often at our expense and I think its only a matter of time before they are suing the police. There is money in such an action. It wouldn't happen at home in Brazil though, where executions of dozens of street people are almost a daily occurrence - and no-one does anything.
Nothing will bring him back. As someone who has just suffered a bereavment - you have to move on. Why make your life more miserable than it already is?

Answer 9

Incompetence. From memory - and this is really from the week that it happened - the police had one spotter, who at the time that John Charles left the station went to take a leak by a tree. They had several chances at interception before he reached the station and did not take them; I know the are well as I used to live in Grantham Road, so I know that they could have stopped him before he made it to the tube.

The police did a misinformation campaign on him and they allowed the media to run away with the idea that he was wearing a big heavy coat in mid summer, had run into the station and vaulted the barrier; as you rightly say all untrue.
What the police (and military - don't let's forget they had people on the ground and involved in that operation on that day too) was inexcusable. Heads should roll.

Answer 10

What I want to know is , who was the man interviewed on the TV news as a witness, he was also featured in the following days newspapers, he stated that Jean Paul rushed into the carriage as if trying to get away and was seized by the police!, who was he?