Mormons/LDS: Are you at all (even slightly) embarrassed by the following elements of your doctrine & history?

Question

A) Joseph Smith claiming to know by the power of God that the Kinderhook Plates were ancient scripture from a descendent of Pharoah, only to be shown up by the men who created the plates.

B) Joseph Smith translated 80% of the Book of Mormon by looking at a rock inside of a hat.

C) Kolob

D) Mark Hoffman tricked the Church into buying documents (which the 1st Presidency thought were authentic) showing Joseph Smith was a false prophet, only to have his fraud publicly uncovered and the Church leadership ridiculed in national press

E) Black (African) & red (American Indian) skin are a curse of God, white skin is "pure & delightsome" yet there is no stance on yellow (Eastern Asian) skin

F) The Book of Abraham papyri were found over 40 years ago, yet the PoGP still says they were burned in a fire. Translations of these papyri, certified as authentic by historians both inside and outside the Church, bear absolutely no resemblance (and I mean zero) to Joseph Smith's "Divine Translation."

Darwin: I agree that every religion has embarrassing elements, including mine. This is simply a question for the LDS faith. Thank you for your input, and it is good to remember that no religion is really that different from another.

Nora: "rhetoric" is the word you're looking for.

And yes, these events all actually happened. You can look up Kolob, the hat/seerstone, and Kinderhook on lds.org, and Mark Hoffman on deseretnews.com

Dionysus: I apologize for offending you and invite you to show me how any of these statements are lacking in truth. If you will do so, I will publicly post an apology and correction on the statement(s) in question.

Rac: They are indeed the same document. In fact, there is a sequence of characters at the beginning of one of the papyri that Joseph Smith included in his "Egyptian Alphabet", and in the same order. Also, Facsimile 1 was found at the beginning of the document, which follows Joseph/Abraham's assertion in the text that Facsimile 1 was the beginning of the scroll (see Abraham chapter 1).

Also, I agree that the Kinderhook plates are not scripture. The problem is that for several weeks, Joseph Smith thought they were and even spoke publicly (see HC) about them being sacred writings from a descendent of Pharaoh, only for the actual creators of the plates to step forward, admit to their gag, and ridicule Joseph in front of the other members.

Rac: (2nd edit) It doesn't matter if "LDS think the best of people"... if you're the 1st presidency (or any Apostle, for that matter), you are called as a "Special Witness of Christ", and you "know beyond a shadow of a doubt" that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. When a guy comes to you and tries to sell you documents claiming to be Joseph's admission to not being a true prophet, you should know immediately based solely on the premise of the documents, that they are false, if you truly are a special witness of the Gospel. It has nothing to do with the person. If you think the documents are authentic, you don't really believe in Joseph Smith, do you?

Mormon_4_Jesus:

The following link (several pages long) was found in slightly less than 8 seconds (I timed it, even with my slow internet connection) simply by typing "Kinderhook" into the search field on the front page at lds.org:

http://lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=b6a8aeca0ea6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

Mormon_4_Jesus:

If the D&C can quote from HC, then so can I.

Also, Joseph Smith HIRED (with Church funds, mind you) people to copy down things that he said, especially talks, and to compile them into HC. As a matter of fact, Joseph had the opportunity to edit the writings before publication (and in several instances made some key changes) just in case something was inaccurately recorded or he had misspoken. I don't know where you got the "someone said that someone said that Joseph said" idea, but have you actually READ in HC? I own a copy myself. I'd suggest reading it. For several decades, it was regarded as an official publication of the Church, and LDS Apostles and prophets still put enough faith in it to quote from it today during GC talks.

Answer 1

As an ex-Mormon I find your post curiously boorish. I would like to understand why it is important to you to know if one is embarrassed about ones religion and how if effects you. Does the word Mormon or LDS some how scare you or make you feel threatened? Or is it just ignorance? Perhaps your parents never taught you how to be an American or America values; to be respectful and tolerant of others and their beliefs.

I am no longer LDS, nor do I believe what and in what the LDS believe. I have far more insight into the religion than you. Yet unlike you I still respect ALL religions regardless of what they believe or what faults I might perceive in them. I would hope as you grow you learn respect and tolerance.

Robert F. Kennedy Said:
“Ultimately, America's answer to the intolerant man is diversity, the very diversity which our heritage of religious freedom has inspired.”

Answer 2

A. there is no evidence whatsoever that Joseph Smith ever even CLAIMED to be able to translate the Kinderhook plates. There is no written record anywhere of any translation that he supposedly attempted.

B. Truth: No one ever really saw Joseph during the translation/transcription sessions, since he was behind a screen; not to mention that there are several different versions of how he didit. So, we don't know.

C. Kolob, according to Abraham, is the star closest to where God resides, and the primary star in the heavens. Why should we be embarrased about that?

D. a. the church didn't buy ALL the documents. b. the RLDS (Community of Christ was just as guilty, if not more so, because the LDS church gave them the supposed Joseph Smith blessing to his son, and they supposedly CANONIZED it.

E. No skin color is a CURSE. It is a MARK of a curse, supposedly. Not THE CURSE.

F. I think iti was thought they burned in a fire. But, we don't have ALL of the papyri that Joseph Smith had. We believe that we don't have the sections that he actualy translated the Book of Abraham.

edit:
>invite you to show me how any of these statements are lacking in truth. If you will do so, I will publicly post an apology and correction on the statement(s) in question.<

If we show you anything, I am willing to bet good money youwol a "Oh, that's just Mormon propaganda, doesn't prove a thing".

>the Kinderhook plates are not scripture. The problem is that for several weeks, Joseph Smith thought they were and even spoke publicly (see HC) about them being sacred writings from a descendent of Pharaoh, only for the actual creators of the plates to step forward, admit to their gag, and ridicule Joseph in front of the other members.

You did not find this on deseret news or any LDS site. History of the church was based on the journal writings of various members, and is not wholly accurate on many things, especially things that Joseph Smith said. It's always a case of someone said someone said that Joseph said.

Answer 3

Why should I be embarrassed by my churches doctrine. There is nothing that can prove our church wrong. The papyri weren't burned and that's what the book of Abraham was translated by. Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by the Urim and Thummim which were stones, which were helped by revelation, to translate the Book of Mormon. I am not embarrassed not a single bit because none of those "facts" as you would say would be correct. Now I'm not a church historian or geologist which there are plenty to find out about, but I do know that are church is true and not based on unsupported opinions. Why should any embarrassment come to mind when I know the truth. Why should I be embarrassed that Heavenly Father visited Joseph Smith so that he could one day restore the gospel and be a prophet.

Answer 4

It was September 11, 1857. A wagon train of 160 settlers on their way to California was massacred by a bunch of Mormons dressed in Indian clothes. 17 children under the age of 8 were spared and lived to tell their story.
1st. They dressed as Indians but after five days they changed tactics.
2nd. Then they went a bit away ,dressed back into normal clothes and acted like the Rescue Party who had negotiated a deal with the"Indians".
3rd, Then confiscated all the guns as part of the deal for "saving" the travellers and Mormon dissidents( who were the reason for the attack in the first place).
4th. Took everybody off a mile or so and shot them all. 2 men got away but were eventually tracked down and killed a day or so later.
5th. Took the 17 children they had not killed back with them to Salt Lake City.
6th. Got away with it. After a publicized trial, with the childrens own testimony admitted into the court, only 1 man was convicted and shot, John D. Lee. ( pardoned by Church 1960) The church even protected over 100 other killers involved in this massacre from Federal prosecution thus making them guilty of Murder as accessories after the fact. Then they say "Thou Shalt Not Kill " doesn't apply to them . Only everyone else.

It ended up being called the Mountain Meadows Massacre. The first time in U.S. history that U.S. citizens were massacred on U.S. soil by religious wackos. This event is even more significant because the total U.S. population at the time was much smaller.(I dont know the exact numbers, maybe only 30 million or so) In todays numbers it would be around 1400 dead.

Answer 5

No, because what you purport to be embarrassing facts are in reality media sensationalism designed to embarass and not to tell the truth.
The Book of Mormon was translated by the power and gift of God using what is called Urim and Thummim, mentioned in scripture.
Kolob is the name given to the place nearest to where God resides as recorded in the Book of Abraham.
I am not familiar with the "kinderhook plates" but I am sure that if they had been scripture, we would still have them in print which they are not so I am not worried about them.
Mark Hoffman was a con man and was unmasked as such. Members of the church tend to believe the best of people and thus set ourselves up for being hurt by wicked people. The leaders are no different. All of us can call upon God in prayer to know the truth of something which is what eventually happened.
Scripture tells us that certain races were distinquished by God so that we would know who they were and what blessings and privileges to extend to them within God's timeframe. Thus, in June 1978 the priesthood was extended to all worthy males according to God's word through His prophet.
As for the papyri, they were translated by Joseph and where they went after that is unknown other than the possibility that they were burned up. Another papyri, known as the Book of Joseph was also lost in the fire before it could be translated. As for the translation of your "new" papyri being different than what Joseph translated, that is because it was not the same document.
Throughout history, evil persons have spread lies about the truth of God's work. In the New Testament it is recorded that the Jewish leaders bought off the tomb guards and spread the lie that the disciples had stolen the body. It is no different today. Ever since Joseph revealed that he had been visited by God and Christ, in person, the wicked have spread lies about him and his work. The faithful know the truth while those of no faith who cannot explain what has happened will continue to spread lies about God's work. Man's wisdom is foolishness to God for as the heaven's are higher than the earth, so are God's ways higher than man's and His thoughts are higher than man's thoughts.
Elevate your thinking.

Answer 6

Have you tried reading the ACTUAL Church History? Obviously not since you believe so many urban legends to be fact. Try reading the real church history from the official website:

Answer 7

Crazy. But no crazier than other religions. For example:

1) God made a perfect world filled with Satan and devils that he had to completely drown, and then he had to have his son killed so he could not punish eternally people who went against his will. Though he still punishes eternally people who go against his will.

2) We are contstantly reborn into other creatures in a individual spiritual kind of evolution.

3) Everything has a spirit, including rocks, trees, etc.

4) Our fates are guided by the stars, with the entire human population broken into twelve groups, each of which have roughly similar experiences every day. (note that given the slow change of astronomy, and the precession of the earth, the dates for each sign are centuries out of date, and that there are acutally currently 13 signs of the zodiac)

There's all kinds of wackyness out there.

Answer 8

When you know the truth you are not embarrassed by it.

You state, "Dionysus: I apologize for offending you and invite you to show me how any of these statements are lacking in truth. If you will do so, I will publicly post an apology and correction on the statement(s) in question."

We are waiting to hear your apology and correction.

Answer 9

So.. your trying to do what no one has ever accomplished in 200 years... Trying to tear down the beliefs of the Mormons... I doubt you'll be able to succeed if the mobs in the 1800s never did.

Answer 10

Well, we don't actually believe those things, except when we get interviewed by the bishop. These might just be also just be opinions and subject to future revisions of church doctrine. We've changed doctrine several times already to conform to laws and public decency.

Plus we can deny anything you say about what we believe because god loves us more than wicked anti-mormons.