I think I've nearly reached the end of my religious criticisms now... Ready for my ultimate question?

Question

So, before I finish up for good; I'd just like to know: I've asked a question before: what if atheists just replied with "Because of faith" in all their answers like the theists are doing, because it would show them how annoying it is and they'd stop doing it maybe. The responses I got back were that theists don't always do it. But when I ask for a proof of God that really IS all I get back from them; faith, faith, faith. Or irrelevant bible references. Personnal experiences aren't proofs either, otherwise we could say that a schizophrenics hallucination is real; because he said so. Schizophrenics can share similar and identical hallucinations keep in mind. Faith can only be understood from a psychological perspective keep in mind. So now; those of you who said that God's existence could be proven logically; go ahead. If this question is ignored by all; with the exception of atheists, I will of course understand, as many of my questions were treated in a similar way previously...

Proverbs31, I can't choose to believe anything, I need a reason. It'd be like me telling you to worship a duck, it's a joke, not something to be taken seriously, unless the duck starts to attack you or your children.

osborne_pkg, were the eye created by a god, it would be perfect correct, what Darwin didn't know, was that all human eyes come with a natural flaw, called the blindspot of the retina. Now be a good little dear and stop avoiding the question, I am not debating evolution here.

disciple, history books are never completely accurate because they are often written by biased people. However, you can look past much of the bias. The Bible has more bias and unsupportable evidence for it to be discarded completely, but once again, stop avoiding the question; I want proofs of Gods existence, nothing more.

Mc Duff, the proof is in your head, and can only be analysed psycholologically, try again.

Maybe you're right geoffrey_philip, maybe we DO think to much, maybe we should all just stop thinking like you.

Jeanmarie, love can be observed at a neurological level and is a product of chemical stimulation. It can therefore be proven.

The few atheists that go nuts and become born again christians are small compared to the amount of people that are christian then casually realise that God doesn't exist. The percentages of atheists in the world is increasing dramatically, the amount of christians are decreasing dramatically. This turn has meritted this time with the name: The Age of Reason.

The few atheists that go nuts and become born again christians are small compared to the amount of people that are christian then casually realise that God doesn't exist. The percentages of atheists in the world is increasing dramatically, the amount of christians are decreasing dramatically. This turn has meritted this time with the name: The Age of Reason.

Jewel, if a huge creature popped out of the sky to show me how it/she could move people and ojects as if they were mere puppets and control them completely, I'd say "Hey, you most probably exist". Then I'd decide whether or not this creature was a treat. I've been proven wrong before and I've loved it because it allowed me to fix my mistake and led me along a new exciting path toward the truth. That was before, recently that has not happened no matter how hard I try. I believe that implies that I am close to the truth.

Answer 1

I have come to see that religion is the triumph of the subjective. The second answer, from the priest, is a good example. This link is to one of the best descriptions of their experience I've read:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=As1WZpRVaBPkQ.67JOPHFz7sy6IX?qid=20070720130141AA1gwUz

Believers retreat into indignant dogmatism or mystic poetry when their arguments are striped away by reason. It appears that they cling to the psychological crutch of faith for strong emotional reasons. This question caused me to think about what our role maybe should be:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AuuznjG9X0uLTBhqQ8Hs.XLty6IX?qid=20070731132942AAWFBrV&show=7#profile-info-OSVyFtxVaa

I feel we can possibly seed a little doubt, give an occational nudge, but we can just take their Santa away.

Answer 2

Of course it can't be proven, but I don't think there is any conclusive evidence against God's existence. Anyone that says they can "prove" God's existence is, of course, blowing smoke.

And, by the way, what is not "real" about a schizophrenics hallucinations? Who determines what is "real"? You? Me? The government? I assure you, the schizophrenic experiences strong emotional responses to their hallucinations. What is "unreal" about that? Likewise, I am without any (yet diagnosed, anyways) mental condition, but I have seen the works of God, heard Him in the words of both friends and strangers. It is a compilation of my experience at a precise emotional state (to put it simply, He seems to show up when I need a lift). That's what I believe. I have faith that such moments in my life are God's presence in my life. I don't hope to convince you, and don't really give a **** if you believe me. But I won't be convinced otherwise very easily.

On a side note, I do find it telling that many of the great scientific minds in history (as many atheistic cornerstones rest in scientific discovery and the scientific method), many who established science as we know it (Newton, Einstein, and today, Hawking, and many more, I would imagine) believe in God. They obviously understood (understand) how science works and still have faith. Something to consider. What experiences did they have? If it doesn't at least make you wonder, you don't want to find God, and therefore, never will. And that's your choice for your life. End of discussion.

Good luck to you.

Answer 3

How can you prove love? There are things in life that you will believe that can not be proved.

You say, " Personnal experiences aren't proofs either, otherwise we could say that a schizophrenics hallucination is real; because he said so. " That could not apply to Faith in God because schizophrenics have a mental illness (don't go there). There are many intelligent, calm, mentally healthy people who believe in the God of the bible. I went to a lecture once given by the Dean of Wash. U. here in the Midwest who's a born again Christian. He gave a lecture on Creationism.

Just because I can't prove to you that God exists does not mean he doesn't. Just because scientists believed the earth was flat years ago (the bible in fact says the earth is round in the Old Test) and at the time being round couldn't be proved did not make it flat!

Yes, I believe in God because of my personal experience and that YOU can't prove didn't happen.

Ask yourself this, why have many former educated atheists become christian after doing sincere research?
For example look at Lee Strobel. He was an investigative reporter for the Chicago Tribune. He was a STRONG Atheist who's wife became a Christian. He went nuts and set out logically to prove to her it was all fake. He's now a born again Christian.
Just some things for you to ponder.
†

Answer 4

I'm a Pagan, and the truth is that I know my spiritual ideas may be wrong, yet continuing to believe makes me happy, therefore I continue. I practice my religion with my eyes open to the fact that I may be wrong, and therefore I do not base my entire identity on it nor do I tell others of different religions (or non-religions) that they are wrong about their spiritual beliefs.

You could very likely be right about there being no God, and if you are, then so be it. It is a possibility that I have accepted could be true.

Answer 5

If you want proof of God why don't you go to Him with an honest and open heart.You have already made up your mind what you believe. If christians can't claim faith, the Bible or their personal experience as proof of God neither can the people who believe in evolution use these things.Evolution can't be proved logically at all, it is just another faith based belief.

Answer 6

I don't see a question at all anywhere in your long diatribe, but I assume that you are asking about the existence of God. Well, let me ask you this: HOW MUCH WORK HAVE YOU DONE IN THIS REGARD? Have you meditated? Have you in any way, shape, or form made the effort to extend your question to the Creator and sincerely asked for 'proof"? Or, are you simply sitting on your **** like most people do, and expecting everything to simply be handed you on a silver platter? God doesn't "have" to prove His/Her existence to you; the fact that you exist should be enough to demonstrate that there had to be a 'cause' in order to realize such an effect! In point of fact it is WE who do not "exist" ; quantum science tells us we are merely distortions of the time/space continuum and have no real existence AT ALL! Yet we exist enough to make snotty statements like "God does not exist". I suggest you read up on "Ramakrishna Paramahansa", who embarked on a TWELVE YEAR 24-7 quest to prove to himself that God did in fact exist. Yes, it took that long for God to answer, yet he stuck to his guns (i.e., he had FAITH that there was an answer to be had) until he DID get an answer...how much effort have YOU put into YOUR quest? BTW, here a helpful tip: you will never get an answer from OUTSIDE yourself; the quest for God is an INNER one.

Answer 7

I've never said that the existence of a deity could be proven, either logically or empirically.

On the other hand, a negative can't be proven, either.

I believe the Goddess exists. You believe She does not. I have personal experiences that cause me to believe this. You have experiences (or lack thereof) that prove your belief to you.

Stalemate. But when it comes down to it...does my belief in a higher power affect your life in any way? Does my honor of the seasons have some bearing on what happens to you? I don't feel the need to convince you of the existence of a God--why do you feel the need to convince me of Her absence?

I could be wrong. I'm prepared for that. Are you?

Answer 8

I believe a true religion (one that describes reality) is backed by evidence and reason. The primary evidence for the existence of God is the existence of the universe, and a biosphere full of creatures which have many structures that have irreducible complexity. This is a structure that if you take part of it away, it will no longer function, and the organism will not survive because the organ is needed for survival. Additional evidence is the existence of the Bible, which contains many facts that have been verified, often written under circumstances where the writer has no way of knowing about a thing, or where the evidence will be buried for later discovery by archaeologists. Yes, human writers have been involved, but I believe that God is, as it were, a co-author, and thus the Bible is preserved free from error IN ITS ORIGINAL COPIES or autographs. There is no grounds for accepting that copies are error-free, or likewise translations. Given that we don't have any autographs, we have reconstructed the original version through the use of many copies and careful scholarship. Based on the above, it is also logical to accept the Christian faith (and also Judaism as practiced in Old Testament times, which is true but incomplete).

Faith only comes in where the evidence has reached its limits. But to say there should be NO faith is not truly a reasonable option. We all have faith in all sorts of things. I believe Japan exists, even though I have never been there. I base that belief on the evidence I do have (testimony, books, pictures and so forth). Also if I get out of bed and turn on the light, I have faith that the light will come on, because most of the time it does. But if the bulb is burned out, or the electricity is off, the light won't come on. Does this mean I never try to switch on the light because maybe it won't come on? We couldn't function if we didn't have a certain amount of faith that things will be normal. To require a more stringent standard of proof for the Bible is really to commit the fallacy from authority, and this I think is where many Christians fall down, because they say the Bible is true because it says so. While that may be part of a greater picture of evidence, it is a fallacy in and of itself.

The authenticity of the Bible is attested by three considerations. The first is the number of copies and how soon after the autographs they were made. In the case of the Bible, we have 25,000 manuscripts of the New Testament and over 1000 of the Old, and the dates of the earliest copies are usually within a few short years of the autographs. On the other hand, we accept as authentic things like Caesar's Gallic Wars. Copies of these other early documents usually are no earlier than 700 years after the original, and there are usually no more than 1100 copies in existence. Usually, it's not that good. The second evidence for authenticity is the statements in the Bible itself about its authenticity. For example, one verse says, these were not cunningly devised fables, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. If a news reporter says he was an eyewitness of an event, we accept that. The third evidence for authenticity is the statements of other writers. For example, the Jewish historian, Josephus, admits that Jesus existed. Since he was an enemy of Christianity, this is compelling. Others have also written about the authors of various books, verifying who they were, and so forth. Obviously, also, all the extrinsic evidence, found by archaeologists and other investigators, adds weight to the validity of the Bible.

Today, the Bible is by far the most published book in the world. It has been translated into over 2000 languages, and billions of copies have been printed. It is a book that changes individuals and society, and the basic ideas are the basis for our scientific and engineering accomplishments because it teaches that the world is orderly, and it is worth studying. In contrast, Hinduism says that all existence is maya, or illusion. There is no motivation to study the universe. The evidence is that Christian societies are the most advanced, ethically and scientifically.

Some people believe the theory of evolution proves the Bible contains error, but when you really examine the theory of evolution, you will learn that it doesn't fit the evidence. The Bible's claim of a worldwide flood fits the evidence much better. Space constraints would keep me from presenting extensive argument on this point, but I urge everyone to look into all sides of the question, and examine the claims in light of the evidence, and evaluate them with the critical mind of a scientist, and see whether the theory of evolution, developed by a discipline that is devoted to the idea that there are no final answers, fits the evidence better than the literal account of creation in the Bible.

Answer 9

I had a open mind about both arguments but really watch this documentary 'with a open mind' it really does answer lots of questions, on where, why, and what the bible was writing for. http://tv-links.co.uk/listings/9/4518



Sorry Pat g but your funny, and very much deluded a world wide flood Mwhahahahahaha sure.

Answer 10

You want proof of God? I can give you irrefutable proof of the existence of a Force or Energy that Man most often refers to as "God".

During the relatively short time I've been a participant in this forum, I've seen numerous references to the various "Gods" Man has Believed in throughout History, and in the present.

There are several things they have in common: In their time, they each had a following of "faithful" Believers and a contingent of non-Believers. Over time, the number of Believers shrinks and the number of non-Believers grows, until finally there inevitably comes a day when all that remains is non-believers, and that particular "God" falls by the wayside.

The second thing they have in common is that they are ALWAYS replaced by a God that is bigger, better and more powerful, and THAT God becomes the "True" God.

The third thing they have in common, (and most important!), is that they are ALL created by Man! The reason this is important to realize is that it means they are ALL copies or counterfeits (some better than others) of the Force or Energy I choose to refer to as the True God, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to copy or counterfeit something that does not exist!

The important thing to remember about both Believers and non-Believers is that both are BELIEF systems supported by Faith. That's why you always receive answers from Believers that offer "Faith" as "Proof" for why they accept their particular Beliefs as Truth. Do you realize that Atheists' non-Belief is also a position of Faith? They have just as much Faith in their non-Belief as the Believers have in their Beliefs.
Neither side can PROVE their position IS Truth, but both sides ACCEPT their position AS Truth, based entirely on their Faith in their particular position. To ALL of them, Belief supported by Faith is accepted as Knowledge; to the Christian that translates into "Knowing" that their God is the "True" God; to the Atheist that translates into "Knowing" that the Christian "God" doesn't exist, and additionally that NO God exists. They are BOTH right, if you only consider their BELIEF system, but I will remind you again of my earlier statement about copies or counterfeits: It is IMPOSSIBLE to copy or counterfiet something that does not exist! Faith is counterfeit Fact, Beliefs supported by Faith and accepted as Knowledge is counterfeit Knowledge, and the "Truth" accepted as a result of counterfeit Knowledge is counterfeit Truth!

To me, the Fact that we have a concept of a God proves that a God DOES exist in the Field of Potential, and that we have the Potential to gain Knowledge and Understanding about Him/It, if we choose to do so.

The big problem I see with Man is that we are not taught very effectively to seek Knowledge of anything that is not perceivable to us by our five physical senses. As a result, we have a great deal of knowledge available to us about the material world we exist in, and that knowledge is growing at a breath-taking rate! But, at the same time, we have very little Knowledge of the "supernatural" world, which is where about 95% of our True Essense exists! All we have available to us regarding that part of ourself is Belief supported by Faith, which is counterfeit Knowledge!

Do YOU see anything wrong with this picture?

I will NEVER accept BELIEFS as KNOWLEDGE, if they are supported solely by Faith; I see that as counterfeit Knowledge.

I ALWAYS accept Beliefs as Knowledge when they are supported by FACTS!