Facts, faith, and the nature of belief?

Question

Following up on my previous question . . .

If I hold a rock in my hand, and say "this is a rock," I have made a statement of fact. It's not cheese, it's a rock, and my direct observation of its "rockness" is the only proof I need.

If I say "George Washington existed, led the colonial army in the American Revolution, and was the first President of the USA," this is ALSO a statement of fact, borne out by ample physical documentation of the period, including eyewitness accounts.

If I say "many of the processes which comprise evolution are still happening today and can be measured, tested, and empirically observed" this is a statement of FACT. You can look it up for yourselves. If I say "that proves the theory of evolution is correct" that's a conjecture, but it's a highly scientific conjecture and part of the scientific method.

If I say "my ancestors worshipped X godhs in Y fashion and viewed the world as Z" . . . these are also FACTS.

So where does faith fit in to all this?

Answer 1

Ohh, nice one.

Faith has three sources: Head (intellectual belief), heart (trust and hope), and hands (action works)

You are discussing intellectual/belief aspect of faith, so I will address that.

Beliefs come from three sources:

1. Facts and evidence (directly observable)
2. They are taught to us (our environment)
3. Our personal desires (self-justification)

1. Your "rock" statement is a fact, directly observable, with a very small possibility of error.

2. Your G.W. statement would appear to be a "lesser" fact, as it would be based on the credibility of witnesses, and proper authentication of the documentation presented.

3. Your statement on evolution is not a fact, but an interpretation of evidence according to your personal "framework" or "filter".

It is actually a conclusion dressed up as a premise and an argument.

Observe:

If I say "many of the processes which comprise evolution are not happening today and this can be measured, tested, and empirically observed" this is a statement of FACT. You can look it up for yourselves. If I say "that proves the theory of evolution is false" that's a conjecture, but it's a highly scientific conjecture and part of the scientific method.

If you'll notice, I simply changed three words of your statement, and the argument still has its original logical validity, but it now has the exact opposite conclusion.

I would argue that there is "faith" in your third statement. The "facts/evidence" has to be interpreted through a filter (a type of faith). Your statement has made a deduction from an assumption (a type of faith).

4. You're statement based on the godhs that your ancestor worshiped is the same as your statement #2. It's factual veracity would be based upon the credibility of the witnesses, and the authentication of the documentation of your sources.

So where does faith fit in all this?

I would change that question to:

"Where does all this fit into faith?"

It fits into the "beliefs" part of faith (which is only 1/3 of what faith is). And the part it would fit into would be the personal desire part of faith. We all pick and choose (to some degree) how to interpret "the facts" to fit our own personal paradigm. We all do it. None of us are immuned to our biases, especially when it comes to drawing "conclusions" from the facts.

That's the way I see it.

Excellent question, it gets down to the basic source of most of the argumentation here in R&S.

Answer 2

Faith, in questions like this, is the lazy man's out...and the rest of us aren't buying it for a second. I've been told by more than one person that it was her "belief" that ancient people worshipped a monotheistic Goddess and that I was infringing on her right to religion by saying otherwise. That's not faith, that's a fact attached to a faith, and in this case its an incorrect fact... or at the very least, it's a statement unsupported by any evidence (which, last I checked, was called "fiction"). It's the argument I get when I ask people to cite a source for rediculous historical claims.

By this logic I could insist my math teacher not mark me down for saying 2+2=5, because I "believe" that's the right answer.

Answer 3

Faith is, in one form or another, required for happiness in human life. One might say that faith is a basic need for mankind. It is an intrinsic want, in whatever form it takes.

For example, if we were to live life simply on the basis of fact, a sad life it would be, indeed. I'm not talking about religion, either. There are times in life when the only thing we have going for us is faith, if only the faith that things will get better. This is something that allows us to continue when all factual evidence indicates the contrary.

The thing we need most to have faith in is ourselves.

So, to summarize, faith is a quality that is personally defined, because it is a personal need in all of our lives. We have the need to have faith in our life, whether this has a spiritual dimension or not. Faith is a hunger, as real as physical hunger, and infinitely more important.

I agree with Serafim, an excellent question.

Answer 4

lol...It is a fact that we cannot actually know what is going to happen tomorrow.

BUT we can say, with some degree of certainty, that the sun will appear to rise above the eastern horizon as the planet spins on its axis.

Faith applies to that which cannot be empirically observed. Evolution is a process which can be measured, tested, and empirically observed. I believe that it is a process set in motion by a divine being, but I cannot demonstrate that to anyone in any meaningful fashion.

The problem arises when people with a great deal of faith believe that it should apply to all situations.

Good questions today Boar; keep it up.

Answer 5

Faith is believing in something you feel is right and committing yourself to it.
You have faith that the rock is a rock and not cheese because someone told you one time that it is a rock.
Same with George Washington He was written about painted. There were people who actually met him. But you still had to have faith he existed because you I doubt have met him but were told about him so you believe he existed.
Many of the processes of evolution that exist were created by scientists or people wanting to discover. It doesnt mean that what they said is all wrong or the process of the planets growing and changing is completely different. I believe things evolve. Just as my letter changes as I write it. But it's do you believe or feel what you have been told completely.
As far as the X gods. Yes I believe in 1 God and that He wants to be worshipped in a certain way. But it's still faith as to whether each person would believe and commit themself to that belief.

Answer 6

As a Christian, I believe there are objective facts that support Christianity. These facts help me believe the religion is true. Faith comes in when I fully trust Christ with open hands, and say Thy will be done. Trusting God to be in the driver's seat of my life required faith.

Answer 7

Faith fits in when your ancestors worshiped X gods in Y fashion. It may be fact that they worshiped, but the gods they worshiped have never been established as fact. That took faith.

Answer 8

Faith should never enter into it. A workable, fully realized human being expects results for what they believe to be true.


and will not waste a minute waiting for the sky to fall, because someone else said so.

TAGGED by the Cosmic task force for the spreading of
(((((((((just plain cosmic intelligence)))))))))))

Answer 9

If you stop with the rock in your hand you have something approaching truth.

All the other facts you named are merely the manifestation of a value/priority matrix you've selected and used to build barriers to your own understanding.

That's how faith comes into it.

Answer 10

Can you PROVE that the rock wasn't at one point made of Cheese? No. So you have faith that it was never made of cheese.

Check mate!