Since the Yom Kippur war of 1973 is this weeks hot topic...?

Question

How exactly do those who claim that Egypt won the war support this claim?
From my understanding of the following facts:
1. Egyptian casualties outnumbered Israeli casualties
2. By wars end, Israeli forces had crossed the Suez and stood 100 kilometers away from Cairo
3. The Egyptian third army was cut off and trapped in the desert with no food or water
4. The Soviet Union felt the need to intervene militarily on Egypt's behalf (they eventually backed down after the US threatened to join on Israel's side if they did)
5. Syria scrapped its planned counterattack after the ceasefire because it knew that Egypt could not afford to re-enter the war
I would say that Egypt lost the war without a doubt. I agree that it was not a humiliating defeat like 1967 was and that they did win the battles of the first day or two. However, that it wasn't a humiliating defeat and that Egypt won some battles does not make Egypt the victor. I'm seriously interested to understand the rationale.

Pre-emptive refute of it leading to Israel relinquishing the Sinai: Israel passed a law in 1967 stating that it wanted to return Sinai for peace. Egypt refused to talk to Israel then because it would involve recognizing Israel's existence. It therefore seems that the 1973 war forced EGYPT to compromise and not Israel. If anything, this is another support that Egypt in fact lost the war.

Wise Heart, thank you for being the first to answer the question logically from the Egyptian viewpoint. However, while I find your quotes very informative, and while I agree that the 73 war was devastating for Israel I still don't see that as a victory for Egypt. That Egypt could (maybe) have counterattacked and gained back its land west of the Suez seems irrelevant to me, as the war was already over. Also, it was still a plan, and plans do not always work. The two quotes who clearly call it a loss for Israel are doing so from two non-standard viewpoints; the one about the intelligence failure as he was head of intelligence and the other from a military detterent power as he was military.
I would prefer you to respond with facts and/or statistics, or at least explain the Egyptian mindset instead of using quotes. What others have said about it is very interesting, but not as interesting (to me) as the arguments themselves.

Answer 1

"It is true that the Israeli forces were able to drive a wedge between our forces in the Sinai and cross over to the western side of the canal where they tried to occupy Ismailia and Suez, which they hoped to be able to use as a bargaining chip in negotiations. The strategy failed, however, because of powerful military and popular resistance. We had devised a plan with which we could have closed the breach with the minimum number of losses. However, before the plan could be put into effect, political activity brought about a disengagement and the withdrawal of Israeli forces to the east of the canal, after which negotiations began at kilometer 101. "
Maj. Gen. [retr'd] Hassan El-Gretli was Chief of Operations during the October War

{the main reason Israel lost in 1973 was not lack of intelligence, but the fact that they viewed Egypt as "a lifeless corpse without a will". }
Haim Herzog, head of Israeli intelligence, later

Golda Meir, Israeli prime minister during the October War
"The Egyptians crossed the Canal and hit our forces in Sinai hard. The Syrians pushed deep into the Golan Heights. We incurred grave losses on both fronts. The agonising question at that time was should we or should we not inform the nation of the truth of our appalling situation?
"I write of the Yom Kippur War not as a military report, but as an intimate disaster or a horrible nightmare that I myself have suffered and which will continue to haunt me for the rest of my life." -- My Life

General Ishio Javitch
"For Israel, the war ultimately ended without our being able to break up the Arab armies, neither Egypt's nor Syria's. We scored no victories. Nor did we succeed in restoring the deterrent power of the Israeli army. If we assess achievements against targets, we will find that the Arabs' victory was the more decisive." -- Symposium on the October War, Jerusalem, 16 September 1974

Ma'areev, 20 September 1998
"The alarm that went off at 1.50 pm on 6 October 1973 was more than a mere alarm cautioning Israeli citizens to go down into their underground shelters. It was, rather, the call that is heard marking the burial of the dead. The deceased was the first Israeli republic. When the war was over, the clock was turned back and a new history began. After 25 years, the pillars of old Israel were no more than a wreck stranded by the side of the road."

If not enough to convince you I have many others. I'm with you all to search for the truth not a matter of who wins. (as long as you also take it this way) I'm not trying to hurt you. Egypt has been also suffering the same after 1967 defeat.

MikelnRL : "the IAF carried out attacks deep inside enemy territory," I quote this part from one of your sources (Palastine facts) which used the name {Yom Kippur} I will not say more to tell you about that source.

Edit : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Yom_Kippur_War
If you read this you'll see that all sources of that article was Israeli sources. Wikipedia is edited by any one. I can post here articles from Wikipedia which is wrong about a country or a group.
I will ask you to discuss the real objectives of the war for Egypt to know if it was achieved or not. I have many sources for information about the war many of it are not on line and some are from Israeli translated books. Some documented actions I have read also about the threatining of America to Egypt to stop the war before the destruction of the Israeli forces in the west side of Canal. The threat came with a promises they go back as soon as there is a cease fire. I will try to find any of it on line for you later.

Edit : I posted a link with more quotes from Israeli leaders and Generals, British, German,French and Israeli news papers in different dates. I think you can believe those Israeli leaders more than me. Also you can check these quotes in Israeli sources. I think you'll find them.

Answer 2

Let's see The Arabs started the war, knowing that on the Jewish holy day of Yom Kippur soldiers will be fasting and praying. After making initial inroads the Arab armies were soon retreating. Israel on the counter offensive was then able to enter Syria, Egypt and Lebanon and was in striking distance of their capitals. Israel may have lost some land at the beginning, but regained it and much more by the end. They could taken Cairo and Damscus if they had chosen to. The Arabs called for a ceasefire and Israel granted it, as they have no interest in controlling Arab land. So one (the Arabs) side starts the war, loses ground and begs for a ceasefire. The other side (Israel) is attacked actually gains ground and graciously accepts a ceasefire and returns the land gained. It was a decisive victory for the Israelis. 5 years AFTER the war, in 1978 a peace treaty was signed between Egypt and Israel, where Israel returned the Sinai which they had controlled since 1967. The Egyptians somehow consider this as proof that they won the Yom Kippur War in 1973, despite the fact that back then they ran with their tails between their legs.

Answer 3

Although I disagree with Wise Hearts point of view and I do believe that ultimately there was no winner in the Yom Kippur War because the two superpowers intervened (although I have also said and agree with Israel had the military advantage before the ceasefire went into effect and ultimately would have been demanding peace occupying Cairo and Damascus - and what a mess that would have been - yuck) Wise Heart using the quotes he has gave a really good argument to support the Egyptian view they won the war. The reality of the situation is that they didn't - but I felt it should be known that using those quotes in my mind to support ones argument that could lead to some legitimacy to Egyptian claims even though the military realities at the end of the war don't support them.

I think the Jewish Virtural Library sums up the war the best from the Israeli side and the objective view when it states at the end of its article regarding the 1973 War:
"Despite the Israel Defense Forces' ultimate success on the battlefield, the war was considered a diplomatic and military failure." http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/73_War.html

What the Yom Kippur War did was that it shattered those of the view that the IDF was invincible and that Israeli intelligence was infalliable. It also made in possible diplomatically for Sadat to argue he could from a point of strength negotiate with the Israelis. Many in the Arab world consider the war an Egyptian/Syrian victory and if it can be argued that destorying the idea that Israel's military could not be beaten as a victory - then they are right. The Arab states did prove in their attact that Israel could lose - that that Israel did lose - but it could and that is why from a psychological standpoint it could be argued that the Arab states had a victory.

Good Luck!!!

I have cited a few other sources that support my view on this for anyone interested. As you will note my source are not all what might be called western or conspirialists would consider pro-Israeli.

Answer 4

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Answer 5

I think that achieving victory on the battle field is not enough to win the whole war. The Egyptian troops could cross Barlev defensive line and killed many Israeli soldiers. But after that Egypt made a peace agreement with Israel and led to Israel's recognition by Egypt, so Israel won politically, and this is the real victory.

Answer 6

"No matter what happens in the desert, there has been a victory which cannot be erased," Anwar Sadat.

"According to any military standard, the Egyptian armed forces have realized a miracle. The wounded nation has restored its honor the political map of the Middle East has changed.”

Anwar Sadat


Although the General Command had approved the plan on 18 December 1973, the diplomatic initiative which had been commandeered by US Secretary of State and National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger was also still in progress. Kissinger had told President Sadat that the US was aware of the Egyptian plan to destroy the Israeli pocket and that he knew that we were capable of succeeding. However, he threatened that if we went ahead with the plan the US would intervene on behalf of Israel.

At 9:00 p.m. on 17 January 1974, the disengagement agreement between Israel and Egypt was announced. The treaty came into effect as of noon on 25 January, at which point Israel began to withdraw its forces from the areas stipulated. The subsequent disengagement of forces proceeded according to the specified timetable until the political leaders on both sides ordered the situation to be frozen.

Answer 7

There are no winners in war. Each nation defines their loses and victories in the case of the Arabs a historical fact they were routed almost to pulp by the Israeli's. Just look at todays Germany and Japan modern wealthy nations did they loose the war or did they win . Now if we look at the Arab states Egypt ,Syria , Lebanon Jordan still poor and in many respecs backward . The other Arab states including Iran can thank their lucky stars they have oil revenue if not they would be poor and backward as the others.

Answer 8

First of all, everything you say is true. The stats speak for themselves. Even though it was hard-earned, this was a victory for Israel, as usual in its slew of victories over its incompetent neighbors. You can't deny the facts. 3rd army cut off, Arab casualties greater by up to some accounts 8 times, Cairo about to be raped when the UN stepped in to save it.
Egypt says it won the war. You know why? Perhaps b/c this was at least one war where they did not completely run in the desert with their shoes in their hands ( and that is fact too, look up old war photos).
No doubt its Israel who won and any military strategist will tell you.

Answer 9

I was 14 when it happened, and remember clearly hearing on the radio that the Israelis were approaching Cairo. I remember wondering if they were going to end up taking the city over, but soon the war ended. I guess the rationale is that there are a growing number of people who don't remember what really happened, let's see if we can get them to believe we won. I don't know.

Answer 10

While I understand your question, personally I feel that in a war, there is never any real 'winner'.