Dear brothers & sisters in Christ...?

Question

For those who believe God elects people for salvation based upon His foreknowledge of their positive response to the gospel.

What's your take on Ephesians 2:3, which says that the believers at Ephesus, prior to conversion, "were BY NATURE children of wrath, JUST AS THE OTHERS." (caps for emphasis) Does this contradict the popular idea that God elects those who are PREDISPOSED to respond favourably to the preaching of Christ ?

Also, the later verse 5 states that, "even when WE WERE DEAD IN TRESSPASSES, (God) MADE US ALIVE together with Christ" (caps & insert mine). So, if this deadness refers to a SPIRITUAL state, how could any sinner have it WITHIN HIMSELF to accept the gospel? For 1 Corinthians 2:14 says, "But the natural (i.e. spiritually dead, unregenerate) man DOES NOT RECEIVE THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Your sharings, please ?

Thanks in advance for all polite answers.

Hi Birdie. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Re 2 Peter 3:9 - Who is the Lord longsuffering toward ? It says "Us" or "you" (NU-Text).

Who is the letter addressed to ? "To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1). These are the "us" of verse 9. Those that He has chosen from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4,5), His elect.

Therefore, God witholds judgement (please see context of 2 Peter 3) in order to give His elect down the centuries time to repent and be gathered into His kingdom.

Blessings to you, sister.

Robert P -

Thank you for your reply.

Acts 2:21 was the only chapter & verse ref. which you gave, brother, so I'll comment on that.

In it, Peter quotes the prophet Joel, saying, "...whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." And quite right, too. However, the only people who CAN call upon the name of the Lord for salvation are those whom God has graciously elected & enabled (see John 6:44).

Further on in Acts (13:48), we read that after Paul's preaching of the gospel, "..and as many were ORDAINED to eternal life believed." The Greek is the verb "tasso" (Strongs 5021), which means "to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or DISPOSE (to a certain position or lot)." Therefore, God disposes people to receive His salvation, they are NOT predisposed by nature, as Ephesians 2:3 indicates.

Bless you, my brother.

J -

Thanks for your reply.

With all due respect, I reject your claim that I have taken Ephesians 2:3 out of context.

The whole point, I believe, of Ephesians 2 (and indeed, chapter 1, also), is to show the believers the marvellous work which GOD HAS DONE in their lives. Verse 10 confirms that salvation is A WORK OF GOD ("we are HIS workmanship").

Verse 3 indicates that the objects of God's workmanship have become so through no effort on their part, being just as spirtually dead as everyone else.

Please consider -

"..just as HE chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.." Eph. 1:4

"..having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of HIS will" Eph. 1:5

"And you HE made alive, WHO WERE DEAD in tresspasses and sins" Eph. 2:1

"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of HIS great love with which HE loved us" Eph. 2:4

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast." Eph. 2:8 (all caps for emphasis)

Even the faith to believe in Christ is a gift from God, J. The Lord Jesus Himself confirms this with His word in John 6:44.

Regarding 1 Corinthians 2:14 -

Well J, even if I have taken this verse out of context as you suggest, the verse still stands on it's own, and supports my argument from Ephesians 2:3.

A spiritually dead, unregenerate person is TOTALLY INCAPABLE of receiving spiritual truth apart from God's help. Indeed, it is "foolishness" to such a one.
No man is PREDISPOSED to accept the gospel. IF it were so, surely that would constitute a form of works, grounds for boasting on his part. "I'm saved because I had more sense than you to believe in Christ." Sorry J, but the Bible does not support such an idea.

John writes of those who have accepted Christ as ones "..who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:13.

Answer 1

You are entirely correct: Eph 2:3 contradicts the popular idea that God elects those who are predisposed to respond favourably to the gospel. The spiritually dead cannot do anything to raise themselves to spiritual life! Only God can do that, as per Ezekiel's vision of the valley of dry bones.

I refer to Romans ch 3 vss 19-30 (too long to quote here) but it shows how God silences the mouths of all who boast that they did something to contribute to their salvation. Only faith saves, yet that faith is a gift from God! But in order to clear up any misunderstanding that non-Christians might glean from this Q and the answers, could I add that predestination is only perceived AFTER the event - not before it. Once a person is saved and then they meditate on scripture, the penny slowly drops. Some Christians don't meditate long enough for that to happen, but it's all right. They'll understand in the glory! They are still our brothers and sisters in Christ! It's just rather crucial that they don't go around saying our supposed free will is more important than God's sovereign grace in election.

Answer 2

We are ALL, by nature, children of wrath. NO-ONE has it within her or himself to accept the Gospel. Salvation is ALL of God, it is God's grace, a gift given freely. Verses 4 and 5 says "But, because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ... It is by grace you have been saved."

That gift will be rejected by many. But God knew, from the very beginning, who would be His. Their names are written on the palm of His hand (figuratively speaking).

I don't think Ephesians 2:3 suggests that people are predisposed to respond favourably to the gospel message. Rather, I think the whole passage emphasises how lost we all are, and that the only hope for humankind lies in God's great plan of salvation.

Check out Romans 1: 18-20; 2: 5; 9:22-24. The bottom line is that God has exercised great patience with sinfull humanity "in order to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory - even us whom He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles". That tells me, very clearly, that God has always known who will accept and who will reject Christ. It is His sovereign perogative.

Comfortingly, it also tells me that no matter how lost the individual, God can work in a person's life and turn them around. Remember the parable Jesus told of the workers in the field? Those who were employed from daybreak received exactly the same wages as those who were called in at the eleventh hour. Spiritually speaking, that translates that even the worst sinner might repent at the eleventh hour and come to saving grace. It is all of God. He is sovereign.

Answer 3

Weren't you a sinner once yet you received the Gospel, and if you say I have always been a christian then you really need to get saved. Jesus came for the sinner not for the religious.

I was a sinner and now I am set free.

Answer 4

This is a bit of a sticky wicket...

Foreknowledge of the outcome does not necessarily mean that the outcome was predestined.

If that were the case, what becomes of free choice?

This usually becomes a semantics debate!
.

Answer 5

The topic of pre-destination is an awesome topic for discussion... the Bible as you rightly quoted has so much to say about this topic... no one ever had it in himself or herself to respond positively to the gospel... God gives us the faith to even believe in Him and respond to His call to salvation... the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and our need for salvation, without His conviction, we would remain dead and lost in sin forever...

Answer 6

First, understand God is our FATHER in Heaven. A father knows his children. Second, we existed with our Father before our mortal lives here on Earth. This equates to him knowing who will respond to what. This does not translate to certain individual automatically getting a free ticket to Heaven.

Every person on Earth, past, present, or future, has the gift of free agency. We choose what we do with our life here. Every one has talents and every one has their row to hoe. For example, my mom's side of the family has a history of cancer. Dad's side has a long line of serious drinkers. My genetics follow my mom's side, so it is safe to bet I will struggle with colon cancer. My brother, who takes after Dad's side, is presently in jail because of alcohol.

My brother and I are both believers in God and Christ. I am more active because I choose to fight my battles and not continuing to live in sin. He continues to struggles.

Our Heavenly Father knows of our struggles, and promises to not allow us to tempted more then we can bare. The so-called elect have their problems, too. This might be why we have so many priests having sexual problems.

I believe God sends people to Earth at certain times. For example, why are we here now, instead of being born two hundred years ago? There is a purpose for us now. He knows it, and hopes we will follow his will. There are people more inclined to follow his will and they come down when we need it. Moses, Noah, Adam, Daniel, the Apostles, are just a few of the examples.

Why didn't God send you or me to complete the work of Moses? Does this translate to being weaker? More selfish? Less obedient? Why couldn't God send someone stronger then Moses to do his work? God let's us come down at the best time for us and his plan. He desires for each of his children to return to him. He is not going to stick us in a situation we can't handle.

You can e-mail me if you want to discuss this more.

Answer 7

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

2 Peter 3:9

Answer 8

I got in a discussion with a Christian about this the other day. I'm interested in the responses.

Answer 9

Preach on brother!

Answer 10

you have a freewill to decide your fate (y/n):
Romans
Acts 2:21
Jude
1 & 2 Tim