Could capoera beat muay thai?

Question

Please try to incorporate style, skill, and technique

Answer 1

Yes, but that again depends on the people in question, their experience level, and if they have experience with each others arts. The arts themselves wouldn't be a way to determine who would win, because it depends on the technician: Not the art.

Capoeira and Muay Thai are both striking arts. Muay Thai is more intense when it comes to overall standup, but Capoeira is right on par with Muay Thai when it comes to kicks. Capoeira also has 1000s of moves (Good or bad depending on what you want to do [A good 400 or so could help in a fight]), while Muay Thai has less than 100 (But there's little to none that can't be used for a fight, and you learn how to hone those 100 moves). There's the clinch of Muay Thai, but Capoeira teaches various grapples as well.

Did you see Tony Jaa vs Lateef Crowder? :P
That wasn't the best example if this is why you asked, because Lateef was doing the flash (Just a small part of Capoeira). You are usually told early that in order to use the moves of Capoeira for something other than the roda: You have to modify them. You aren't going to be doing au sem maos ("Cartwheel without hands") in a fight unless you are damn good at evading and playing head games, but a martelo (Roundhouse kick)? Sure. ^_^
Capoeira is very unpredictable, fluid, quick, and very hard.
Muay Thai is intense, straightforward, quick, and also very hard.

I would have to say, however, that Capoeira takes a lot longer to master. The self-defense element of it also takes a long time. You learn early how to execute certain moves, but it takes much time to learn how to do them lighting quick (As you should do in a fight of some sort). You're supposed to hide your intentions in the roda anyway. :p

A good Instructor/Professor/Mestrando/Mestre in Capoeira vs a Muay Thai practitoner with similar experience? I can't know who would win, but that would be one long, and crazy fight. :p

Could Capoeira beat Muay Thai? Yes.
Will one always beat the other? No.

EDIT: It's not a "Theory:" It's learning what techniques work for you. Like I said: You're told from day one in most places the moves you do in the roda are to be modified for things other than the roda. That includes: Fighting situations. Just because something isn't self-defense ready out of the box doesn't automatically make it less.
-If that's your explanation of the clinch, then they would be comparable. There's some grappling in it, and in order to do it: You have to find a way to get into your opponent. Most techniques are non-contact, but some of the ground grapples are not non-contact. You probably aren't going to see resistance (Just because it's usually a quick motion of counters from one or another), but because the opponent is still trying to evade, it isn't going to come easy. Again, the concept of literal resistance (As in the two people fighting one another from the grapple) will not be there, but it's not as if one person lets the other come in automatically.
-Depending on the school, you might do bag work, and Capoeira is one of the most physical martial arts (Which is not an insinuation that Muay Thai isn't) in existence.
-Capoeristas fair well in competitions, I've seen that a small number of schools do contact fighting, and I've also seen a few MMA fighters that practice it to either crosstrain, or to be the standup art of choice. Valdemar Santana practiced it with Boxing, and BJJ.
-Not literal "Cross-Training," but not every schools does the art by the books. Obviously the more intense schools aren't in America, but some of them do train harder than you may think. Brazilian schools get really intense. There's a school in NY that incorporates Brazilian JuJutsu into their training as well (Just as one of many examples of a school going beyond what is perceived).

Sorry to add on to my book, but I do so for the sake of Jon.

Let me start with this disclaimer: As a cardio vascular exercise, that increased flexibility, agility, reflex and reaction time, and is enjoyable, yes Capoeira is great for that. But a striking art on par with Muay Thai? Definately not. It is a game, glorified gymnastics, with little use in practicality.

-Have you ever taken the style? Have you observed anything beyond what you call "Glorified gymnastics?" (As in the "Flash" part of the "Martial Acrobatic Dance"?)

I've already said this a 1000 times: Capoeira has self-defense oriented moves. They aren't theories either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pOd4G7odwg
Obviously this is just a small example of some of the grappling. There's way more to it than that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF3VcmCCgzY
These are some of the strikes that would be used. Once again: A small number in regards to it.
This is the stuff you probably wouldn't do in a self-defense situation (Unless you want to piss your opponent off, or you are one crazy mofo):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKu0HKorWys

Please read this when you get a chance:

http://www.straightblastgym.com/alivenes...

Understand the concept of aliveness.

"Practical experience is really a simple thing. It means you have done it over and over again. You have a functional experience of it."

-It's a no brainer that the concept of an active resisting opponent is good, but the combination of all things that are not "Active resistance" should not be automatically deemed ineffective. You know how long people have been hitting punchings bags: They don't hit back, but your goal isn't to get used to an opponent, but it is rather to build strength.
A combination of the two seems more probable. It's more natural to hit a person than to hit a bag, but most people aren't going to stand around and let you hit them as you continously gain weight.

As for reptition: Capoeira has 1000s of moves, but how fast do you think a good mestre can throw an attack? I don't know about you, but I'm thinking quick.

"A Muay Thai person knows what it feels like to hit another man in the face with his technique, he has done so hundreds of times. He knows what it is like to be hit in the face and has been done so hundreds of times."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grmeD4UCH34
Let's think about the concept of fighting. There's many elements to self-defense than fighting itself than just power, speed, agility, and stamina for example.
There's various ways that people win fights when you would at least expect it. It comes down to mere seconds as to who wins a bout (Which does not imply that a Capoeirista has to get a lucky shot).
Most of the time when one gets close in Capoeira, they playfully move away (Or come in showing an example of themselve going in for the kill). In some cases, however, they go as far as actually initiating the attack.
For example: The Cruz
The person kicks in a fashion that has a sort of upward angle. You come in, move your body right under their leg, and then you throw them from that position. Now... do you honestly think that in roda someone is just going to let their partner come in like that? The whole time they are in there: They throwing out moves. Whether it's a kick, an ear slap, a punch, a grapple, an acrobatic move (Which we both know is impractical in fighting when it comes to the average person), et cetera... There is no stopping until someone is done. If you are tired in the roda, you are supposed to standup straight, and rest in that position. You have to be lucky enough that your partner agrees.
The blinding speed, and dodging concepts of Capoeira are just as good (If not better [I would contend that they are better... well not speed.. Muay Thai and Capoeira can both be quick and slow, but dodging? The cat like reflexes from good training are essential help.]) as those of Muay Thai.

Another thing: The music.
The music determines the tempo, and it also determine how the two people in the roda are supposed to move. There's slow and steady, and there's quick and painful. It depends on the people really. Some people are getting a bit angry today, because a lot of students are afraid of getting close enough for actual contact, but many do. You will see some rodas where people get "Into it," and some where they stay far away until someone finally closes in.

"He has functional knowledge of his techniques and their applications, as well as how people react to them. The defenses of them, as well how they feel when applied correctly."

The clinch? Of course. I know when someone tries the clinch, the other person isn't exactly patting them on the back.
The striking? There's still reactions in Capoeira. Obviously there's little to no blocking, but that's because dodging is the key. There's many "Esquivas" ("Escape movements"), and no you won't do them to the teeth in a match, but the ability to execute a dodge at the drop of a dime will definitely help in a match.
People do get striked (And some styles actually go beyond the roda, and have actually straightforward fighting going on), but it's usually just a "Fake" of it (You slowly show them they were open in most cases rather than actually hitting them, but people do get hit, and sometimes it's not a simple poke).


"There was no talk of cross training, this was simply style vs. style. Even some of that is debatable, since Regional is somewhat different than Angola. However the general premise reminds the same."

-True to some extent, but I have to use Muay Thai as an example:
Ok. Muay Thai is a very old martial art. Originally, you can surely say that instead of using punching bags and pads: Practitoners used trees to deaden nerves, and strengthen limbs (Of which some schools still do this today).
Now: Capoeirstas have not just been striking air and people as part of their training. There's many elements to it that go beyond that. I personally don't think using a bag is indicative of "Cross-training" per se, but I just thought that would be a similar comparson. As for the BJJ incorporated Capoeira: Well of course that's different, but the striking is still the same.

However, pure style vs. style. You are talking about a Martial Art that does hard active sparring, competes in highly adrenalized situations, focuses on practical technique and is intent on hurting. There is no modification needed.

-I never implied that. I think Muay Thai is a damn good (DAMMMMNNNNNN GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD [Like if I believed their were actual better styles, I would vote this at the top. :P) striking style, and as part of my striking: I'm considering practicing it as my final striking art because of what I've observed from it.

"So yes, it is simply "theory" because until you put it to the test in a real situation you have are only taking an educated guess as to the techniques success, or the outcome of the techniques application, or it's practicality."

The modification is about what you do: Not about whether or not it works. It's not a "Theory" because of the following:
1. Capoeira is in essence a "Marital Acrobatic Dance." Those elements are what you do, and while all will exist in the roda: You know for a fact the "Martial" is the only part that is going to be used in fighting situations. For example:
You've seen the customary stance of Capoeira, but you and me both know that a Capoerista would not (Unless again: They are psychotically good) do the "Ginga" in a street situation. Some schools again will tell you that, and that's part of the "Modification." A half-boxing stance would work really.

Technique wise: The striking is almost synonymous with various Oriental Martial Arts:
Ponteira (Front Snapping kick)
Bencao (Front thrusting push kick)
Chapa (Side Kick)
Gancho (Hook Kick)
Meia Lua De Compasso (A customary Capoeira kick, but we both know with enough force it can kill [Think spinning quick, and hitting the opponet in the face while trying to look at them almost the entire you do the kick... that's another rule of Capoeira: Keep your eyes on your opponent with whatever you do] )
Martelo (Roundhouse kick)
And more...

I DARE you to find me ONE MMA person who has Capoeira as the art of choice for their striking. Just ONE!

He did a couple fights in Canada.
Here's the one he won:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezGfmJ0SCoY
GO LELO!! :P

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jl-_6xwtuU4
There's another. Capoeira and GJJ. (Yes it's cross training, but it's not striking cross training)

I take it this is the one you saw?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8FJyScbV6s&mode=related&search=
You see the comparison of a straightforward way of doing the style versus being all flashy with it? Lelo only does Capoeira: It's his life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5p4nClD_5c
Capoeira: Striking
BJJ (Of which I assume because I'm not aware of an armbar being a part of Capoeira curriculum): Grappling
Obviously we have that as a cross-training element, but it's not the striking in question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7f7j7sl42A
There's another.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdpKJSS3-Nc
Another one, but the win was a BJJ move.

(I will qualify that a little, he has to have won at least 1 fight. Some jo blo who fought a MMA event and got housed in one rnd is not a MMA fighter)


I highly doubt you find any one MMAist that even cross trains in it for fitness or flexibility, as Yoga and a solid routine is far more valueable.

-You sure about that? Capoeira is one of the most physical martial arts in existence. As one yahoo answer person once said: "You will burn 1000 calories per class."

Valdemar Santana (One of the few people to defeat Carlos Gracie) trained in Capoeira, Judo, BJJ, and Boxing. Capoeira was his first Martial Art.

Having a school here or there that cross trains in applicable Martial Arts does not make it purely Capoeira.
-The only cross training I'm seeing here is the BJJ, and what could be training for the fighting (Not as in styles, but you know.. like bag work [Which some Capoeira schools do anyway]).

You say they have done well in competetions? Which ones? Give me some examples, show me some videos. I can find at least 3 or 4 on youtube of Capoeiristas getting destroyed even in kickboxing.
- Here's a high-level roda:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u-LhKUepHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4AyckvyTiw
There's a little fighting in the middle.

-You see how you learn to combine both extremes? When you are in a fight: It's obvious you move towards the fight extreme.

Without sparring, without fighting someone who is fully resisting you, and intent on hurting you. Someone who is not throwing kicks with the intent on you evading, but literally coming at you to take your head off. The effectiveness or practicality of a technique is highly questionable because it has not been pressure tested or applied against a resisting opponent period.

-It's not that it hasn't been tested, but rather that the art itself combines as I've said before "Martial Acrobatic Dance." It is true that Capoeira isn't the out of the box style that gets you ready to fight in no time, but that's not what it's aligned to. Some styles do forms, and yes we see people show off, but most of the style is technique mastery, dodging and awareness, and adapting to certain situations: Those are essential elements of fighting.


In fact, more so to the point it develops a muscle memory and technique for NOT hitting people.

I mean no disrespect, but I would like for you to say that to a mestre. I'm not a mestre, but you've got to see some of these high level capoeristas do their mojo.

It is improvised fight choreography.

If that were true, that would be only one element of it. As I said: It would combine all of the above.

There may be some schools out there that do contact sparring, or cross train in other arts, etc. But they are not doing purely Capoeira.

-Contact sparring is part of Capoeira. Again I tell you that the art itself combines various elements, and each school teaches differently.
The old style (Angola) was strictly for self-defense as well. It was used by African Slaves to defend against their masters (With bound hands as claimed by some). They didn't do what you may have observed.

A style that never hits anyone vs. a style that hits everyone with all they got, all the time....

The math should be easy to me.
-How about a style where you can hit, dodge, fake a hit, grapple, and more? Another concept of Capoeira: Unpredictability. You aren't going to do a fake in a ring, but a good Capoeirista can play some serious head games. It isn't as concrete as not striking or striking: Depending on your school, it can be a number of things.

But I respect your opinion, and your art. You seem very enthusiastic and obviously love it. I think that it is a great art for you because you get maximum enjoyment out of it. I think that we have differeing views of practicality.

-I respect your arts as well. I'm only a beginner, but I've researched the art many times, because this question comes up a lot. You are much better at saying this then those freaks that go "OMGZ THAT STYLE IS TEH GHEY!! IT WUD NEVA WERK IN A STREE SETTING!!" while not only have they only seen the "Flash", but they have nothing to back up what they are saying. I have to applaud you for that. I know you are well aware of Martial Arts.

-I think it's just that (This is my analysis of you) you think practicality must come from the core of a Martial Art. I think that it should come from the person themselves (The core is fine as well). There's various arts that have moves that people may not be able to execute as a part of fighting (With some exceptions), but we are all different. I love Martial Arts that have many techniques that are highly interpretable, so that people are able to learn what works for them. Unforutnately we have a lot of styles that are so concrete in what one should do, but I like loose styles (And combined styles) with lots of moves. I think being able to pick is the best thing. "A roundhouse kick may work for you, but a crescent kick may work for me." Do you catch my drift? Being choosy about it shouldn't be there because othe art in question is centered directly around combat/competiton, but rather what the person in question wants to do. I'm not always going to kick somebody in the rib if they swing at me. What if I find an opening for a throw? What if I am strong enough to restrain before authorities arrive?

"Just because something isn't self-defense ready out of the box doesn't automatically make it less. "

Yes it does, it makes it less effective in self defense. This isn't so much about style but about training technique. This goes for a myriad of other styles that never spar, soft contact if any, never train with resistance, etc.
-Then what would Muay Thai fall under? It's a martial art centered around sport fighting. I'm not jabbing it or you, but I just think that if you are going to be that concrete about it, I can say something similar.

I consider the roda to be similar to a sparring match. In comes many different ways, and as I said before: It isn't always dodging, faking, and not going forward with techniques.

I think it really depends on intention there. When someone asks me "What style should I do for self-defense?" I usually speak of multiple fighting ranges, or just taking self defense classes (Because that's what they are their for). To me, Martial Arts can be any number of things to any number of people to include self-defense. That should probably be the first and foremost of it, but self-defense, in my opinion, is a practicality issue. If you want to strike someone that is coming after you, what do you do? Do you counter strike? Do you throw them like something you would learn in Hapkido/Judo? Fludity, unpredictability, and practicality (For the person in question) are the key here.

Regardless of modification, if you cannot practice something at 100 percent speed and intensity, then you are less effective at applying it at 100 percent speed and intensity.

-Some actually do the fighting with that strength.

You don't learn to drive a nail by intentionally missing it, or by swinging a hammer in the air, you learn by hitting it over and over again.

-Where do you begin? Would you rather hit bags, practice techniques until they are deeply in your brain, and then hit people, or just learn to directly hit people?

You don't learn hit a baseball by swinging a bat in the air, you learn by making solid contact with the baseball.

-But where do you begin? You learn form from swinging without hitting the ball. When you are ready, you smack one out of the park.

The same thing goes for combat, or anything really. Regardless if you "know you have to modify" the technique, you still have no idea how to modify it, what the result will be when applied, how to apply it in different situations etc.

Could you make techniques work for you? Absolutely, every single art has techniques that COULD work.

-Is that not what practicality is about? Doing what works for you? Not simple necessarily (Because they aren't synonyms), or not in your face what is considered by a select number of people to be effective? Is every martial art the same in its goal? Are you always doing xyz kick so you can do xyz thing to the body? Are there not arts where you might try to catch an opponent off balance, use a crushing blow, or dodge or counter? et cetera???

The only way to know they work is to pressure test them, to use them against people of varying skill, to use them against people who are trying to stop you from doing it, and trying to do techniques to you. People who are trying to win just as much as you are.

-That would insinuate that winning is more important that the sparring itself.

That is where you get effective techniques. You can count a technique effect for you, when you can apply it to a skilled individual, who knows it is coming, knows the defense of it, and is still unable to stop it. Then that same technique against someone who is unaware of the technique, has no idea it is coming, does not know how to defend it, becomes incredibly easy.

Sorry for the book, I think Capoeira is great for what it is. But I do not classify it as a combat effective art.

-We have differeing opinions.

I will change what I say to some extent...:
Could Capoeira beat Muay Thai?: If you have two practitoners that have both practiced for just a few years: It is likely that the Muay Thai person will win (And this is obviously taking out the "No Style is better" concept I believe). However.... A Capoeirista that is at the skill level of an instructor or higher (Meaning between 6-more years of training) against a Muay Thai practitioner with the same amount of experience? It's impossible to know. Especially in Brazil... They go hard there. :p
You should check out authetic Capoeira from Brazil. It is not as playful as you may think.

Answer 2

It really all depends on the fighters abilities, skills, and experience. For example an incredible boxer with years of experience will most likely knockout a less experienced fighter trained in muay thai. But just to answer your question th way you intended it to be answered....i think that Krav Maga could beat them. Krav Maga is martial arts used by the Israeli army. It focuses on self defence in deadly situations. Krav Maga uses quick defences with an even quicker offence. So a fighter who is well trained in Krav Maga will block a knee in muay thai or prevent a submission in BJJ...then she/he will paralyze the opponent or at least paralyze them for some time enough to have the upper hand. I personally think Krav Maga is an amazing martial art that needs more recognition.

Answer 3

First of all the movie, was a movie and it really would have sucked if Tony Jaa lost. After that it does depend on the skill level of each person. If both fighters are of equal skill level then it could go either way. What we need to keep in mind is that, although, capoera is usually seen as flashy it is still a martial art. People would not have practiced it over all these years if it didn't work. Let's just think of this, 160lbs of a person flying through the air hitting you; that would have to hurt.

The bottom line is that you really can't compare two arts. You can compare two practitioners, but to compare the art itself is ridiculous. Both work, both have strengths and weaknesses, and both have been proven to work by the fact that they have lasted over the years.

So I personally think that they both are kick-*** arts and that it would be one interesting fight.

Answer 4

That all depends on what happens at the time. A lot of people get into these what style is best, what can beat what, but it always just comes down to pure dumb luck. What you see in the movies is coreographed to within an inch of its life, and what you see on UFC is still governed by rules, and even then, same applies: Dumb luck. For instance, hypothetically, let's say you have a Brazillian jiujitsu fighter and a, for arguments sake, San Sou fighter square off in utter mortal combat. (Spare me the video game connotations. I did play the MK with styles, and it rocked!) Hypothetically, the Jiujitsu guy shoots on the San Sou guy, and as he's hooking his legs for a takedown, the San sou guy rams one of his thumbs through the BJJ guys' eye socket, and into his optic chasm. Potentially fatal, and you won't be seeing it on TV anytime soon, and furthermore, the victor in that outcome will probably go to jail. For a long time. Or: Same situation, except the takedown is successful and he grounds and pounds the San Sou practicioner into pulp, and again, he probably will go to jail. It comes down to whatever happens in the moment.

Answer 5

always depends on the two fighters involved... so if the capoera fighter is a much more advanced fighter then yeah but i think in terms of style muay thai might have the major edge...

Answer 6

anything COULD beat anythign else but i would take muay thai the vast majority of the time against capoera, and most other thinigs

Answer 7

Yes, if the practioner is on a higher level. Both things being equal, then Muay Thai is superior.

Answer 8

No. Capoeira cannot beat Muay Thai.

Answer 9

4 thumbs down... am i the only one who sees capoera as a dance and not a martial art? its not a MARTIAL ART! everyone I knoe who does capoera says ITS NOT A MARTIAL ART, comparing the two is seriusly like comparing salsa dancing to Mauy Thai, its the same thing

Answer 10

99% of the time I would say nope.

First off Capoeira is constatly practicing under a no contact rules set. The Roda, the whole game of Capoeira is avoidance and ensuring your techniques do not hit your partner.

How can you compare that to an art that is focused on heavy sparring, constantly practicing against resisting opponents, more intense conditioning, and developing timing and accuracy.

Capoeira looks great, but is somewhat worthless in practicality. You can't compare a cooperative Capoeira grapple with a Muay Thai clinch, they are different animals. The Muay Thai clinch is fought and sparred, they are taught how to escape it, how to counter it, how to gain dominance with it against fully resisting opponents. Their level of pracition is full on, at 100 percent. They fight with true adrenaline in the ring. They know what techniques work against a tall guy, against a shorter guy, how to avoid a stronger guy, etc. They know this from thousands of sparring sessions, and real fights in the ring.


To the guy talking about the San Shou and Jiujitsu (which I am assuming is BJJ). First off no one really shoots without setting it up. B: The Juijitsu guy has just as much practical knowledge of eye gouging as the San Shou guy does (meaning none, since neither have done so against resisting opponents) and actually you do see this kind of thing in sporting matches, mostly by accident.

I've caught more than my fair share of thumbs in the eye (you will find some guys are actually adept at it such as Chuck Liddell) it was distracting but not enough so to cost me a fight.

Not to say it hasn't cost other people (mainly people fought Chuck Liddell) fights. Also keep in mind a vast majority of grapplers don't take people down with shots.

Aside from that, there is a point that anything is indeed dumb luck, especially on the streets.

Now as far as the "Self Defense Applications" of Capoeira, they are never practiced, never fought. It is up to the individual to "theorize" how to use these moves in a fight. Theories aren't practical knowledge.

Hard charging sparring against other people looking to do you harm is.

So 99percent fo the time a Muay Thai guy would destroy a Capoeira guy. (Speaking in the truest sense of both arts no cross training, etc)

That's not to say a Capoeirista couldn't land a lucky shot, it could happen. But it would be just that, a lucky shot.


Just my opinion, take it for what it is worth.

EDIT*

Sorry to add on to my book, but I do so for the sake of Jon.

Let me start with this disclaimer: As a cardio vascular exercise, that increased flexibility, agility, reflex and reaction time, and is enjoyable, yes Capoeira is great for that. But a striking art on par with Muay Thai? Definately not. It is a game, glorified gymnastics, with little use in practicality.

Please read this when you get a chance:

http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html

Understand the concept of aliveness.

Practical experience is really a simple thing. It means you have done it over and over again. You have a functional experience of it.

A Muay Thai person knows what it feels like to hit another man in the face with his technique, he has done so hundreds of times. He knows what it is like to be hit in the face and has been done so hundreds of times.

He has functional knowledge of his techniques and their applications, as well as how people react to them. The defenses of them, as well how they feel when applied correctly.

There was no talk of cross training, this was simply style vs. style. Even some of that is debatable, since Regional is somewhat different than Angola. However the general premise reminds the same.

However, pure style vs. style. You are talking about a Martial Art that does hard active sparring, competes in highly adrenalized situations, focuses on practical technique and is intent on hurting. There is no modification needed.

So yes, it is simply "theory" because until you put it to the test in a real situation you have are only taking an educated guess as to the techniques success, or the outcome of the techniques application, or it's practicality.

I DARE you to find me ONE MMA person who has Capoeira as the art of choice for their striking. Just ONE!

(I will qualify that a little, he has to have won at least 1 fight. Some jo blo who fought a MMA event and got housed in one rnd is not a MMA fighter)

I highly doubt you find any one MMAist that even cross trains in it for fitness or flexibility, as Yoga and a solid routine is far more valueable.

Having a school here or there that cross trains in applicable Martial Arts does not make it purely Capoeira.

You say they have done well in competetions? Which ones? Give me some examples, show me some videos. I can find at least 3 or 4 on youtube of Capoeiristas getting destroyed even in kickboxing.

Without sparring, without fighting someone who is fully resisting you, and intent on hurting you. Someone who is not throwing kicks with the intent on you evading, but literally coming at you to take your head off. The effectiveness or practicality of a technique is highly questionable because it has not been pressure tested or applied against a resisting opponent period.

In fact, more so to the point it develops a muscle memory and technique for NOT hitting people.

It is improvised fight choreography.

There may be some schools out there that do contact sparring, or cross train in other arts, etc. But they are not doing purely Capoeira.

A style that never hits anyone vs. a style that hits everyone with all they got, all the time....

The math should be easy to me.

But I respect your opinion, and your art. You seem very enthusiastic and obviously love it. I think that it is a great art for you because you get maximum enjoyment out of it. I think that we have differeing views of practicality.

"Just because something isn't self-defense ready out of the box doesn't automatically make it less. "

Yes it does, it makes it less effective in self defense. This isn't so much about style but about training technique. This goes for a myriad of other styles that never spar, soft contact if any, never train with resistance, etc.

Regardless of modification, if you cannot practice something at 100 percent speed and intensity, then you are less effective at applying it at 100 percent speed and intensity.

You don't learn to drive a nail by intentionally missing it, or by swinging a hammer in the air, you learn by hitting it over and over again.

You don't learn hit a baseball by swinging a bat in the air, you learn by making solid contact with the baseball.

The same thing goes for combat, or anything really. Regardless if you "know you have to modify" the technique, you still have no idea how to modify it, what the result will be when applied, how to apply it in different situations etc.

Could you make techniques work for you? Absolutely, every single art has techniques that COULD work.

The only way to know they work is to pressure test them, to use them against people of varying skill, to use them against people who are trying to stop you from doing it, and trying to do techniques to you. People who are trying to win just as much as you are.

That is where you get effective techniques. You can count a technique effect for you, when you can apply it to a skilled individual, who knows it is coming, knows the defense of it, and is still unable to stop it. Then that same technique against someone who is unaware of the technique, has no idea it is coming, does not know how to defend it, becomes incredibly easy.

Sorry for the book, I think Capoeira is great for what it is. But I do not classify it as a combat effective art.

Answer 11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsbVyGtQo4g

And I say no more