Another Question for JWs....?

Question

Seriously curious on the official JW teaching for these...

1) Why were stones picked up to throw at Jesus after he talked about His pre-existance? John 8:58-59

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him...."

2) Why did Thomas call Jesus my Lord and my God and then get praised for believing? John 20:28,29

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

What made them want to stone him?

But why did they want to stone him?

kj7gs.... I am not presenting them with anything... I just want to know what they are taught happens in these verses

Wow racykitty I didn't realize asking JWs what the teaching is for these verses contained any venom? You say the devil is my father for asking such questions? Would Jesus teach like what? This is not teaching, this is asking you what you believe. Why is that hard to understand?

I believe these verses point at Jesus being God. You do not believe that. I just simply want to know what you personally believe and/or are taught that these verses mean. Specifically, why did they want to stone Jesus? and why did Jesus praise Thomas for calling him my Lord and my God?

Thank you to anyone who can tell me the answer to those two questions. I am not looking for what I believe, I am looking for what JWs believe.

LineDancer... why were they enraged by this?

racykitty - you are right I did not attack MayC, nor did I attack ANYONE. And her answer was not posted when I addressed you earlier. And it is sad that you agree with what she has written, yet say she is not one of God's people. Shame on you.

May C I hope that you noticed that while you are sticking up for JWs, they are saying you are not God's. Christian love, isnt it? I thank you for your personal interpretation, however I would like to point out that the bible does say exactly why they wanted to stone him:

John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

This leads me to believe that the Jews interpreted Jesus to believe that He, as the Son of God, was God in the flesh.

The Jews said that they think Jesus thinks He is God! That is the very reason He was crucified!

Again,that is my interpretation,I am trying to see how JWs think something different. I want to understand WHY they dont agree.

keiichi!!! Was that necessary? Allow me to point something out to you. Again I am looking for your belief, not mine. But regardless of who you think Jesus is, Jesus told the Jews their Father was the Devil because they didn't know who He was... their eyes couldn't see and their ears couldn't hear!

John 8:45-47
Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

There was no lie.... the Jews believed not that Jesus was God, but that Jesus made Himself out to BE GOD. That is the REASON he got stoned and the REASON he got killed. The number one thing here is that they did not believe Him to be the Son of God because that would make him Equal to God,(John 10:33 KJV) and that is the problem.

That is black and white. That part should be the same for both of us.

And if you believe otherwise, please explain your belief without the hate that you have displayed.

So you believe that the Jews were lying because they said that if Jesus is the Son of God, it would make Him equal with God.

But you do agree, that this is what the Jews thought, correct? This is the reason for His death? The Jews said He couldn't be the Son of God because it would make Him equal to God.

keiichi if the Son of God would not be equal to God, then how do you interpret this verse?

1 Cor2:6-8,14
We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Psalm 24:10
Who is he, this King of glory? The LORD Almighty— he is the King of glory. Selah

Again, just looking for your interpretation. Thanks.

one more keiichi... if the Son of God being equal to God is a lie from Satan, then why does Satan listen to the Son of God's orders?

Mark 1:34
... He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.

Luke 4:35
"Be quiet!" Jesus said sternly. "Come out of him!"

Answer 1

"ego eimi" (I am) is translated to read as a mere pronoun and verb at John 6:35.

What justification is there, then, for the translator to render that very same phrase as if it were a title synonymous with the name of Jehovah, as they have done at John 8:58?

Answer: There is no justification, only apparent bias towards promotion of the unscriptural Trinity doctrine.

If Jesus intended to take the title of "I Am," he would have said something like, 'Before Abraham lived, I was the I Am.' As it stands, converting the "am" into a proper noun leaves the sentence without any sort of modifying verb for the pronoun.

That is why John 8:58 in most translations is mere gibberish, unless you imagine that Jesus suddenly started speaking in some sort of Ebonics. If the concocted title of "I Am" at John 8:58 is simply another name of God, then we ought to be able to substitute the word God or Jehovah and get the same sense. So, read the verse in question substituting "I Am" with God and what do you get?

The NIV would read: "Before Abraham was born, God."

You don't have to be a Greek scholar to appreciate that the translation of ego eimi as "I Am" is a hackneyed and clumsy attempt by Trinitarians to prop up a limp doctrine that cannot stand up on its own. The truth is that the expression in question can denote a past action, and according to the context Jesus was asked about his past. The NWT is not the only translation to realize this.

The New Living Translation (NLT) nicely phrases it, saying: The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?" Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"

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Why would they stone him?

John 8:37,40 - "I know that you are Abraham’s offspring; but you are seeking to kill me, because my word makes no progress among you. But now you are seeking to kill me, A MAN that has told you the truth that I HEARD FROM GOD."

They wanted to stone him because they did not believe he was the messenger from God.
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Thomas, overwhelmed by his astonishment at the reality of Christ's resurrection, which he had previously denied, was moved to make a declaration to reaffirm that he recognized Jesus as his Lord.

Three verses after Thomas' exclamation, at John 20:31, the Bible clarifies that Jesus is Lord and the Son of God by stating:

"These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God,"

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As for John 10:33, it is notable that Trinitarians are disposed to reference the Pharisees and the Christ-hating Jews, as if they spoke the truth.

Jesus had already told them in the 8th chapter that they did not know him or his Father who sent him, but that they were liars and sons of the Devil. The truth is the Jews were lying when they said that Jesus made himself God. He didn't.

Jesus did not let the Jews' lie go uncorrected. In the 36th verse he set them straight by reiterating that he said he was God's Son and that he was dispatched by his Father.

Yet, according to Trinitarian reasoning, the word "son" is synonymous with "father." Apparently, then, words have no real meaning, so black is actually white; up is down; death is life, and so on and so forth.

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"He who belongs to God hears what God says."

Does Jesus say his Words are his, making himself God? If you are correct about this then the Trinitarian doctrine is correct and the Jehovah’s Witnesses should simply disband themselves and throw in the towel.

Jesus said: "...and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me." John 8:28

The Jews knew 2 Chapters back that Jesus was only repeating what God had told his Son. But you may prefer to believe the lie of the Jews, that Jesus is making himself God.

Jhn 10:33 - "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

Jesus who had already rebuked them as Sons of lies, tells them again he is the Son of God.

Jhn 8:44 - "he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Jhn 10:36 - "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

The trinity only works in opposite world when you believe lying Jews whose father is the father of the lie.

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Carl is 100% correct. The lying Jews and Trinitarians all equated the Son of God equal to God.

John 5:18 - On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

So once again Jesus corrects them saying “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?

Clearly these mere humans who are gods DO NOT equal to God. Instead like Jesus their job as gods were suppose to be representatives of and spokesmen for Jehovah. Just as Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Ex 4:16

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John 5:18 does not express the apostle John's belief, but the opinions of Jesus' enemies who were seeking to build a case for blasphemy against Jesus. See Luke 6:2,7.

It was the unbelieving Jews who reasoned that Jesus was attempting to make himself equal with God by claiming God as his Father. While properly referring to God as his Father, Jesus never claimed equality with God.

He straightforwardly answered the Jews: “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing.” (John 5:19, RS; see also John 14:28; John 10:36.)


It is Jehovah's Will that all creation honor his Son.

Jesus said that he could not do a single thing on his own, but he did what he did in imitation of his Father. That means that Jesus has limitations, in that he is bound by his love for Jehovah to always do his Father's Will and not his own. In the 20th verse, Jesus said that the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he does. He went on to say that the Father would show him even greater things in the future. Again, this shows that Jesus is dependent upon God to enlighten him.

It should be clear, to reasoning minds at least, that Jehovah is the teacher and Jesus is the pupil. Jesus is a unique son of God in that Jehovah "shows him all the things he himself does." That's why Jesus could be an exact representative of God.

Besides being blasphemous, the Trinity makes a mockery out of the special father/son relationship that exists between Jehovah and Jesus. According to the Bible Jehovah loves Jesus and Jesus loves Jehovah. According to the Trinity, God merely loves himself and showers himself with all sorts of blessings.


Which pretty much covers what the original question was about John Chapters 8 to 10. What we have found is the Jews were supposed to represent Jehovah to his people as gods. Yet Jesus instead labels them as Satanic lying murders. Nothing what the Jews says can be taken with any credence.

So we have a decision to be made. We either believe Jesus who said he is also a representative of his father a god. Or the Jews who said he is God. The choice is up to you…

Answer 2

I'll try to answer. Consider that i am studying the beliefs of the JWs on my own. So, I may have a "different understanding of their beliefs" and what i have read from the Bible.

A to Q #1: The Jews under the infuence of the Pharisees already hated Jesus. They felt that Jesus was coming to them in blasphemy claiming to be Son of God when he (Jesus) did not observe the Law according to their view of it. For example, the Sabbath. Jesus healed and taught during the Sabbath when the religious learders believed that NOTHING SHOULD BE DONE during that day. So, trying to find fault in Jesus to arrest and kill him, they found anything or everything he said to be unscriptural or against the belief of the religious leaders. Jesus is not God, the Father. The apostle Paul said in Philipians 2:5-9 regarding immitating the humility of Jesus Christ, "...that being in the nature of God, (Jesus) did not consider equality with God (the Father)..." (NIV).

Consider too: If the Jews wanted to stone him...because of the claim that he was the Son of God (which explains his existence before Abraham) what more if Jesus actually said to them I AM, God the Father?

A on Q # 2: If Jesus was truly the LORD and the GOD (Almighty) and Jesus praised Thomas for that (meaning Jesus claims that He is the LORD and GOD, the Father/Almighty), then Jesus contradicted himself when he said to Magdelene (before meeting with Thomas) "....I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God...." (John 20: 17).

..... and honestly (now this is my personal opinion), i do not think Jesus really praised Thomas. Thomas wanted proof that his Lord, Jesus was actually the person in front of him. He wanted to see the mark of the nails when Christ was impaled....as proof. Jesus showed it to him and only then Thomas believed that the Lord, Jesus was brought back to life! That is why Jesus said to Thomas, " blessed are those who HAVE NOT SEEN and yet have believed!"

Answer 3

Enraged by Jesus’ claim to have existed before Abraham, they picked up stones to kill him.

Those who claim that Jesus was using "I AM" as a title are ignoring the Gospel accounts of Jesus as a whole. For instance:

John 3:17 said that God sent his Son to earth. That would not be true if Jesus were God. It would mean that God himself came to earth.

At Luke 1:32, 35, the angel Gabriel told Mary that she would give birth to God's Son. If Jesus were God, then Gabriel told Mary a lie.

At John 10:36, Jesus called himself God's Son, NOT God.

At John 17:3, Jesus called his Father the ONLY true God. If Jesus were God, then he lied.

If Jesus were God, why would he say his teachings were not his? John 7:16

If Jesus were God, why would he say: "But now you are seeking to kill me, a man that has told you the truth that I heard from God"? John 8:40

If Jesus were God, why would he say: "If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality"?


If Jesus were claiming equality with God, WHY would he say: "The Father is greater than I am"?

Jesus NEVER claimed to be God.

Thomas may have addressed Jesus as “my God” in a way similar to expressions made by his forefathers, recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures, with which Thomas was familiar. On various occasions when individuals were visited or addressed by an angelic messenger of Jehovah, the individuals, or at times the Bible writer setting out the account, responded to or spoke of that angelic messenger as though he were Jehovah God. Jg 6:11-15 This was because the angelic messenger was acting for Jehovah as his representative, speaking in his name, perhaps using the first person singular pronoun, and even saying, “I am the true God.” (Ge 31:11-13; Jg 2:1-5) Thomas may therefore have spoken to Jesus as “my God” in this sense, acknowledging or confessing Jesus as the representative and spokesman of the true God. Whatever the case, it is certain that Thomas’ words do not contradict the clear statement he himself had heard Jesus make, namely, “The Father is greater than I am.” Joh 14:28

Listen to the conclusion that John wants us to reach:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: but these are written, that ye might believe.” That we might believe what? “That Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” John 20:31

Answer 4

I wasn't going to answer this Q as I am not a JW - then I read one JW refer to "a hackneyed and clumsy attempt" by Trinitarians to prop up their doctrine by translating Jn 8 as "I Am". The ignorance and brass neck of that person is unbelievable. He, who knows nothing about koine Greek, would even try to put words into Jesus' mouth, if Jesus had meant to imply he was God. Well, the shoe is on the other foot. It is the unqualified JW men who tried to twist this clear ascription of deity to Christ, by Christ himself, who have messed up the Greek. Only NWT and KIT ignore the grammar to say "Before Abraham came into existence, I have been". Even the Emphatic Diaglott (much beloved of JWs) says "Before Abraham was born, I am he" maintining the present tense which Jesus DELIBERATELY used.

Well, there we have it, folks. Some JWs will even say Jesus' grammar was incorrect. Jesus must have made a mistake. Either that, or the people who wrote down what he said made a mistake. Either that, or centuries later some rogue translators changed what holy scripture said. For sure, Jesus NEVER used present tense. He must have meant past tense. Their NWT correctly changes the present tense to past tense - the only Bible in the world to do so. They are correct. Everyone else is wrong. I'm going to switch off my computer now before my sorely tested sanctification is found wanting.

Answer 5

Nothing awkward about the situation. This will usualy mean either, a glass of cold water if its a hot day, a cup of cofee if its a cold day or just a simple hello. It all depends the circumsatances. It has happened to me many times so I am talking from previous experience and not from hear-say. I hoped that helped. Knowledge + Application = Wisdom

Answer 6

More than once the Jews of Jesus' time on earth;
wanted to kill him;
----------for calling himself God's Son.----------

What would they had done, had he told them he 'was God'?
-------------He never claimed to be God. Ever!--------------------
1 Cor. 8:5,6 RS:
Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth---as indeed there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'---yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."

This presents the Father as the "one God" of Christians
and as being in a class distinct from Jesus Christ.

Also, did AnyOne notice the very 1st line of 1 Cor.8:5,6;
--------"may be so-called gods in heaven and on earth"----------
----------------------gods in heaven & earth.-----------------------------
---------------Jesus is a god, NOT the Almighty!----------------------


What some ppl Fail to Realize, is that the J'sW's
are not but ppl themselves.
W/ a thinking mind.
Some would rather attack and hurl insults
then to reason and be reasonable.
Be, any one or many of us humans incorrect in our own understanding of these words written for us-----
Our own heavenly Father will deal with this one accordingly; but not the same as the one(s) misleading His sheep.
But for those who do not present the loving words of our Father in heaven, spitting them w/ venom, YOU will NOT win a person over with this kind of attitude.

Did Jesus teach in this manner?
Did Jesus make his Father & God's name manifest to men
like that?
I understand that the Zeal for our Father and His Word gets a person fired up! I myself am guilty of this. So, Slow Down, Be Reasonable. If this you cannot or Will Not Do.......
Then YOU are from YOUR father the Devil.

lys prin: I agree; that the Trinity teaching is twisting the word of God.
When I read the material offered-verses etc...
I don't discern the Trinity to be a truthful teaching.
It does not harmonize w/ the rest of the Scriptures.
In the words I read, I don't "get" that the 3 are 1.
Judaism is based on "one God,"
the concept of a triune God, goes back to Greece & further back.....to Babylon.
The history of pagan religions are littered w/ triune gods.
Thx.

EDIT: Anna I didn't say that YOU r spitting venom, I was referring to the other answers. Although YOU did recognize that it was directed at you, then It must have been, by ur own words.I did answer the Q, through scripture, only it's not the answer ur lookin' 4. U want an answer that backs up ur belief.

May C answered w/ the truth of it. And yet, U don't attack her. It is an attack of Jehovah's ppl. Thk You.....

Answer 7

You are bang on with all points.

They wanted to stone him because he was claiming equality with God and blasphemy was punishble by death.

His use of the phrase "I AM" is the same usage of the phrase Yahweh used in the OT and in this instance is a testimony to his pre-incarnate existance.

If Thomas had been committing blasphemy by calling him his God, surely Jesus would have rebuked him, just as angels did when someone wanted to worship them in the Bible.

As to the last, JWs try to say that his use of "my God" was simply an exclamation like teenaged girls use now days (ie. "oh, my God"). And yet JWs will not use such an exclamation themselves because they feel it is blasphemous. So, go figure.

Answer 8

THE JW TRINITY SUBTERFUGE

Endless trinity debates by the Jehovah Witness apologist is a red herring distraction to complicate reader discovery of the Watchtower's real purpose of having come into existence.

To; DECLARE CHRIST SECOND COMING IN 1914

Yes,the central CORE watchtower/Jehovah Witness dogma is a demonic false prophecy Remember that readers.(JW's love to talk trinity cause it's an enigma that they can spin)

Jehovah's Witnesses apologist use the trinity 'quandary' to divert and distract from the core issues

The central CORE doctrine of the Watchtower,yes the reason the Watchtower came into existence was to declare Jesus second coming in 1914.When the prophecy (derived from William Miller of 1842) failed they said that he came "invisibly".

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Danny Haszard Bangor Maine http://www.dannyhaszard.com/trinity_quandary.htm

Answer 9

Thanks for asking this, Anna.

#2 was always on my "exception list" when I was a witness. Their explanation was never truly satisfactory to me because it required ignoring exactly what the scripture says. Over and over, through the years, when this was discussed, I would think, "This is one of those that we have to 'wait on Jehovah' to really explain."

What did Thoms MEAN if it was different from what he SAID? I was taught that every single scripture was truth. But this one they always seemed to weasel around.

Was Thomas just hysterical, as they like to imply? If that were the case, Jesus would have corrected him. There's nothing in the context of that event that says anything about Thomas' credibility other than that he at first seemed to doubt it was Jesus at all.

When I quit the witnesses, several people, elders included, told me they had their own personal lists of "doubts" that they dealt with in their own ways. By that time, I had learned so much about the outright deceit of the witness leadership that the Thomas incident here wasn't even close to the brightest spot on my radar, but it was on my list. It's something that they try not to spend a lot of time on because it inconveniently nullifies the rest of their teaching. The other scriptures that they quote in this context don't resolve the problem, they point out that there are scriptural anomalies that need to be resolved.

Once again, they are weighed in the balance and found wanting.

Answer 10

Hi Anna.

Contrary to the Watchtower perspective on how the term "the Son of God" should be understood, the Bible clearly shows exactly what the Jews perceived that term to mean -

Please consider -

"The Jews answered Him, We are not stoning You for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a man, MAKE YOURSELF GOD." John 10:33 (caps for emphasis).

The Lord's reply in verse 36, "Do you say of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said I AM THE SON OF GOD ?"

Compare with the following verse -

"The Jews answered (Pilate), We have a law, and according to that law (Jesus) ought to die BECAUSE HE MADE HIMSELF THE SON OF GOD." John 19:7 (caps & inserts mine).

The Jews obviously equated that term with a claim to deity.

Why did the Jews pick up stones to stone Jesus following His statement in John 8:58 ? The answer is simple. For the very same reason that they sought to kill Him in identical fashion in John 10:33. Regardless of how the Watchtower ( or anyone else) have chosen to render ego eimi as "I have been", the reaction of the Jews to the Lord's reply is strong indication that they understood Him to be making more than just a mere claim to pre-existence. Ask yourself this question, who would be more qualified to fully comprehend the significance of the Lord's word ? The most eminent Greek scholar, or Jesus' contemparies, who were intimately acquainted with the language which He spoke ?

Incidentally, the NWT rendering in no way disproves the doctrine of Christ's deity, although it does lessen the impact of the Lord's word, somewhat.

Regarding John 20:28 -

The literal rendering of the Greek is "the Lord of me and THE God of me" - please note that the definite article is present here.

If there is any doubt as to who Thomas - a monotheistic Jew - was addressing as THE God (not "a god"), it is helpful to be reminded of the whole of verse 28 -

"Thomas answered and said to HIM (i.e. Jesus), My Lord AND my God!" (caps & insert mine).

There's really very little that I can add to that.

May God be gracious to JW's.

- EDIT -

Trinity proof texts -

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you ANOTHER Comforter, that He may be with you forever" John 14:16 (caps for emphasis)

The Greek translated "another" here is "allos". It means "another of the SAME kind", unlike "heteros" which means "another of a DIFFERENT kind". In other words, the Lord Jesus would ask the Father to send another like Him. The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct, yet both of the same kind. This verse conclusively proves that the Holy Spirit of God is a PERSON AND NOT AN IMPERSONAL, "ACTIVE FORCE". Was Jesus an impersonal, "active force" ? No. He was / is a PERSON.

Verse 17 - "Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, HE ABIDES WITH YOU AND SHALL BE IN YOU." (caps for emphasis)

Verse 18 - "I will not leave you as orphans; I AM COMING TO YOU." (caps for emphasis)

Verse 23 - "Jesus answered and said to (Judas, not Iscariot), If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, AND WE WILL COME TO HIM AND MAKE AN ABODE WITH HIM." (caps for emphasis)

So who will the Father send ?

Who will come ?

"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the SPIRIT OF GOD dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is not of Him. But if CHRIST is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the SPIRIT OF THE ONE WHO RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD DWELLS IN YOU, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." Romans 8:9-11 (caps for emphasis)

So whose Spirit dwells in the truly born-again believer ?

One God in three distinct, but not separate persons.

In addition -

Regarding the verses where Jesus speaks of the Father as His God, for example, John 20:17 & Revelation 3:12 -

Any apparent contradiction here of the teaching of Christ's deity is easily resolved when one possesses a correct understanding of the Son's nature. That is, He is both fully man and fully God. When He speaks of the Father as His God, He is speaking from the position of a man.

Not convinced ?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1

"And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us.." John 1:14. Please note that the SAME Word who was "In the beginning" with God dwelt in a human tent (check out the Greek for "tabernacled"). Jesus was not just a perfect man, He was also deity, the pre-existent Word.

He is STILL both man and God in heaven, as Revelation 1:17 & 18 clearly shows -

"Do not fear; I am THE FIRST AND THE LAST (cf. Isaiah 44:6) and the living One; AND I BECAME DEAD, and behold, I am living forever and ever". (caps for emphasis, insert mine)

See ? The One who shares the same UNIQUE title as Yahweh is ALSO the SAME One who died and rose from the grave (albeit in a glorified body).

Keiichi -

In regard to John 5:18 -

It's interesting to note that John makes no attempt to correct what you imply was a false assumption on the Jews part, that Jesus was making Himself equal with God. If that were the case, then wouldn't one expect John to, under the Holy Spirit's guidance, set the record straight ?

The following verses 22 & 23 are also interesting, the Lord Jesus clearly advocating that He should - according to the will of the Father - receive the same honour as the Father does, which quite naturally includes WORSHIP (cf. Revelation 5:13 & 14).

Answer 11

Anna, they're not even squirming when you present them with logic. They have long since learned how to twist scripture to their liking regardless of any evidence presented to them. And when they talk about things "not being consistent" when they are very consistent, when they give you "Greek meanings" that are not what that meaning would be at all, you're going to be the one scratching your head and wondering not only how they could come up with this, but how they could cling to it soooo tenaciously.

This is because they are Jehovah's Witnesses, Anna. They do not dialogue, they do not wish to entertain logic or any exegesis that refutes them. They will go straight back to their watchtower theology and present that to you, whether it makes any sense to you or not. They will quote doctorates, who must be taken seriously, but notice in "conundrum's" case he quotes at least two Jewish doctorates who would also disagree with JW theology. "Doctrines of men" that JWs will quickly quote when it suits them.

Jesus being God was decided in scholarly councils, "of men," in arguments presented and accepted by mainstream Christianity many, many years ago. The fact that Jehovah's Witnesses are siding with Jewish scholars should get them thinking about whether they still want to call themselves Christians, yes?

But back to the JW "translation," unless you just want to show others what they're facing when they invite these people into their homes, the only a result of questions like these is to stir up another pot of cult rhetoric.