How can a woman justify becoming a preacher? Serious Replies Only Please.?

Question

From the Holy Bible(NRSV), 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 versus:

33B) (As in all the churches of the saints,

34) women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says.

35) If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

Given that along with 1 and 2 Timothy, how can any christian church ordain any female ministers. This is not a male/female question, but an obeying God question. How can it be the infallable word of God if major denominations foresake its laws.

I asked for serious answers and I guess that invites inappropriate responses from some people. Thanks for those who actually tried to answer the question seriously. God Bless and Thanks!

Boote K

As to #6 I did an extensive hermanutical study of the passage for an assignment. I went back and looked at the orginal text, or atleast the oldest know surviving copies, and used various lexicons to translate the text for myself. I still believe it is referring to the Jewish oldtestament times prohibition of women to discuss the prophets in public.
I cannot say that of Timothy, other than a general reading of the text through many modern translations.
I have also already read many of the text you have suggested. I will just say that their inerpretaions and mine do ot agree, but I will not deny they have some valid ideas, at least some.
And to as much as I may not agree with all of your answer, I do certainly feel your reply was well thought out and based upon alot of evidence. Because of its clearity and compelling nature, I will be picking your answer as the best.
Good Work, and God Bless!

Answer 1

Why?

1) Examples of women preaching in Scripture:
John 4:28-29"Then the woman left her water jar and went back to the city. She said to the people, 29 "Come and see a man who told me everything I have ever done! He cannot be the Messiah, can he?"...39 "Many Samaritans from that city believed in him because of the woman's testimony, "He told me everything I have ever done."

Acts 18:26: "He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained the Way of God to him more accurately."

2) Jesus specifically told a woman to share the good news of His resurrection (ie the Gospel)-John 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' " (Paul himself said that his is the total of the Gospel.)

3) The admonition to all Christians to teach. Colossians 3:16: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; teach and admonish one another in all wisdom; and with gratitude in your hearts sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to God."

4) The Holy Spirit gives "gifts" according to grace (not gender).
Ephesians 4:8-12, "Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he made captivity itself a captive; he gave gifts to his people." 9 (When it says, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is the same one who ascended far above all the heavens, so that he might fill all things.) 11The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ." (Which brings into question whether grace is subject to the "law" and if not, why apply "the law" in 1 Cor 4:34. And if not, since Paul wrote both passages, couldn't it be our interpretation that is the problem.)

5) In Christ we're no longer divided by cultural distinctions. Galatians 3:28: There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." This is in the context of us all being One in Christ....and frankly we should be acting out of His authority and not our own. ((Which incidentally, we never have to be afraid of being under another Christian's authority.....if they are being led by the Spirit--which is when we should be following them--they are acting from Christ's authority, not their own))

6) The verses you quote don't quite mean what you suggest. 1 Corinthians 14 does state, "women should be silent in the churches". However, this has to be read in context of 1 Corinthians 11: 4-5 which instructs women to "cover" their heads while praying and prophesying (prophesying being what we'd call preaching and the exact meaing of Akatakaluptos isn't known since it might be a veil or a hair style.) So, then how could one be "silent" while prophesying (and giving church prayers)? The same way people were silent then became silent in Acts 12-13: The whole assembly kept silence, and listened to Barnabas and Paul as they told of all the signs and wonders that God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, "My brothers, listen to me." How does the crowd sigao twice? Sigao does not always mean complete silence, rather it also means peaceable-as we'd probably say "quiet". This was the attitude expected of all learners in this period.....which also explains why it is used in the context of learning in 1 Corinthians14 and elsewhere.....and incidentaly, if these particular verses are taken without consideration, notice that these would not apply to all women. Not all women have husbands---and Paul himself says its better to remain unmarried in order to focus fully the kingdom. Since many women do not have husbands they wouldn't be included.....and what is more, if taken as you suggest women would indeed be foolish to get married. Ephesians 4 links the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the church to maturing--personally I'd rather be a mature Christian than married any day.

Also, notice that if this were a blanket "silence", women would not be allowed to make any noise whatsoever in the church. They couldn't teach a child, couldn't offer a word of encouragement (which is edification), couldn't invite someone to share a meal (which is hospitality), couldn't show love in anyway that involved noise; couldn't sing a hymn or song (as commanded by Paul), couldn't tell anyone about Jesus (as Jesus instructed)...etc. In fact, a woman would be blocked from being like Jesus in the House of God. In the very place we should imitate not only Paul, but our Lord and Savior Jesus, would be the one place we would be forbidden to do so.....Unless of course, you're suggesting that some non-silence is ok, and others are not?


And what law is Paul referring too? Where is this law that says women must be silent in churches? Was it a local law? (Cause its not in Scripture.) And what about all of Paul's writings about not being under the law, but under liberty? And is it shameful for a woman to speak in church----or in our culture is it shame not to allow a woman to speak?


7) We also have the example of all the women in history who have taught and teach the church and who have been leaders. Take judge Deborah, for instance....or Miriam who Micah calls a leader of Israel. Then there's the Elect Lady and Stephanas....and non Biblical examples such as Anne Agnew, Catherine of Siena, Juliana of Norwich, Aimee Semple MacPherson, Fanny Crosby, Catherine Booth, Margaret Fell, etc. Jesus said that we could look at the fruits and that a house divided against itself couldn't stand. That these women were able to lead so many to Christ, which can only be done by the power of Christ, shows there ministries were from the Lord.

8) I think you mean 1 Timothy 2 instead of 1 and 2 Timothy....Specifically, 1 Timothy 2:11-15.

1 Timothy 2:11:"Let a woman learn in silence with full submission." We've covered silence and its relationship to learning...but let's look at the purpose of learning. Does Scripture advocate continued passive learning or does it support learning with a purpose? Hebrews suggests that at some point we should stop being mere learners and start being active mature Christians. Hebrews 5:12-14: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic elements of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food; 13 for everyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is unskilled in the word of righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those whose faculties have been trained by practice to distinguish good from evil."


1 Timothy2: 12: 12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent." Seems kind of straight forward, right? Well, no, and that's why the translators haven't provided a "literal" translation. In Greek, the verb translated "permit" here, was actually in the present progressive---being more "I am permitting no..." Which means Paul wasn't making a blanket statement. Then there's the who "a man" thing. You've taken it to mean any and all men in church---but that's not what it says. Is this "a man" her husband? If so, what about singles, widows and divorced (remember Paul allowed unbelieving spouses to leave)? Or is there specific man Paul has in mind given the troubles in the church of Ephesus? And wouldn't that be a problem for Timothy who was taught by Lois and Eunice. Yet, if that weren't a big enough problem, what exactly is it Paul is not allowing? Teaching everyone? (Which again would contradict Scripture). Teaching and have authority over a man? Teaching authortatively? (Which would bring in to question the example of Huldah and having Pheobe be a letter bearer.) The Greek text isn't really clear. And if it just plain means "teach", do we need to use the sissors on our Scripure? Afterall, Mary teaches us with her Magnificant, Hannah teaches us with her prayer, Achsah and the women with the issue of blood each us with their persistant. Mariam wrote the songs of praise in Genesis....and Deborah wrote the poem in Judges 4. Do we cut out these passages since they are women teaching us? And exactly what is meant by the word translated here as "authority"? Notice that the KJ uses "usurp authority". Which given that authein didn't take on the meaning "authority" till sometime around the 8th century seems more accurate...especially since the word can also mean "kill" or "claim to be the originator". Not quite so clear is it.....and that doesn't even start to address the syntax which brings up even more questions or what we know about the church of Ephesus at the time!

1 Timothy 2:13 "For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. " First, in Greek this is one of those oude sentances, so its not so much a "for" but a "but". Why would Paul start the sentance here a negative.....translators here help us again, by modifying the negative into a "for". It maybe that "for" conveys Paul thought...or it could be that "for" respresents an interpretation resulting from a theological assumption---just as the translation of authein as "authority" does. I see the "but" as more accurate, but at a minimum it should cause us to pause before assuming our own interpretation is correct. In fact, look at the logic here, under your interpretation, women could not teach "for" Adam was created first and while Eve was deceived Adam was not. The whole first thing, well I could demonstrate a nuance, but frankly in the grand scheme of things it wouldn't matter because the next verse creates the bigger problem for your view point. Eve sinned because she was deceived, and according to your view would not be eligible to teach. Adam sinned though he was not deceived, which means he knowingly sinned, and according to you view would be eligible to teach owing to his having knowingly sinned. That, in my view, is not supported by Scripture. I view Scripture as indicating that knowingly sinning is far worse than sinning without knowledge. So are you seriously suggesting that rebellion makes one a better teacher?

1 Timothy 2:15 "Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty." Now, this passage causes even more problems. According to Paul we're saved by faith, yet here "she will be saved though childbearing". Do we really believe women get saved via child birth? But also, is this child birth or parenting? The language isn't clear. Also, notice that this being saved is contingent on what "they" do--who is "they"? Is it the married couple? Is it the children? Who?

Even if we thought we understood verses 1-14, 15 should being a yellow light to assuming we know what the passage means.


9) Now as far as "ordination"....neither of the passages you reference addresses ordaination---in fact Scripture itself doesn't. Again, decided that women can't be "ordained" and that randomly picked a verse to make say it. Quite simply neither passages addresses ordination in any form.

So, what does this mean? First, Peter wrote that he couldn't understand everything Paul wrote, and Paul wrote that we look through the glass darkly. We need to be careful when we assert that we, flawed as we are, somehow have a lock on what the Bible "means". Sure, some of us take the Bible "literally"--((I certainly do, and frankly far more literally than your merging of ordinationg and 1 Timothy 2.)); however, taking the Word literally doesn't mean imposing and tweeking Scripture to what we want. Rather, we have to be willing to admit when we reach the limit of our understanding. If we are not prepared to read Scripture in context, then frankly, we need to get in the car and take Paul's coat to him and his books because he tells us to do so....and we need to be kissing each other in church---because he tells us so. When we don't, we walk in legalism and restriction instead of the liberty, freedom and service Paul intended. Just look at the posts here--people have somehow gotten that Paul views women as inferior. Paul, who called a woman an apostle; Paul who said Pheobe was his "protasis" and who instructed the church of Rome to aid her. Paul who called women "co laborers for Christ". Paul who taught men to love their wives and serve them as Jesus serves the church.

Also, we need to acknowledge that Scripture was not written in English....the texts we have are in Greek (Koine), Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic and Hebrew. We also need to be aware that Scripture was in a different social context. We're "shocked" that Paul tells women to be "silent" (quiet), but they would have been shocked that he told women to learn. Remember this is the time period where some Rabbis said the Torah should be burned rather than read by a woman.

We need to start with the Scripture that are clear---start with verses we at a minimum we know what the Greek words mean....not with words where we simply don't have enough examples to know the meanings (ex. authein). We also need to start at Christ. In Christ we are supposed to act like Christ---everything we do is supposed to be done as for Him. Christ never withheld teaching, healing, edification or hospitality. He always reached out to meet needs, even when the "law" appeared to bar Him from serving.

Therefore, I believe that women can speak in the church, that as Paul instructs we should be praying and prophesying...we should be teaching and admonishing one another.....we should be edifying our brothers and sisters in love. We should evangelize like the woman at the well, we should construct complex theological statements like the SyroPhenecian woman (who spoke out to Jesus), lead churches like the Elect Lady, lead our homes like Stephanas (Paul said to be tryrants in our homes), teach like Priscilla, prophesy like Phillip's daughters, be apostles like Junia and Mary Magdelene.

So, my question to you would be, why exactly do you not support female minister? God's Word is infallable, and we should abide by what it says. Why don't you support women like the Elect Lady leading churches? Or women like Pheobe being ministers?

Also, I would point out that all of the "twelve" were Jewish men from Palestine. To say that since the Twelve were men, therefore women can't be ministers seems a little, ummm, selective. Why not also say that all ministers must be Jewish....or all ministers must be from Palestine. Or all ministers must be born in the 1st century. Again, that rationale is about us randomly making a rule, then deciding what we determine is what God meant. Additionally, this overlooks the women who were also disciples of Christ and who travelled with Him....and the women who waited with the disciples in the Upper Room for the Holy Spirit. The infilling of the Holy Spirit is never about serving ourselves, but rather about us being renewed to serve others.

Finally, Jesus said that everywhere the good news was shared, we'd talk about what the woman with the alabaster jar did for Him.....but we don't. I have a suspicion as to why. Seems to me, that like the disciples, we think we're sooo spiritual and even try to tell Jesus how to do things. They were so busy telling Jesus what the woman should be be doing, they missed how she ministered to Him.



So, anyway, a lot of people way smarter than I have written on this topic:
Books: Text in a Whirlwind, Equal to Serve; Paul, Women and Wives; No Time for Silence; Speaking of Women etc

Journals: Priscilla Papers; Evangelical Quaterly; Journal of New Testament Theology etc

Answer 2

If the owners manuel to my say 1968 Plymouth says , in section one, that" car may be ran immediately after starting, on even the coldest days of Winter, and later section six says,"car must be allowed to warm before driving on the coldest of Winter days, then in another section gives examples of the adverse outcomes of driving when car has been allowed to warm. Well I would say that the manual is of no value, and drive the car by the use of common sense. In other words, put your Bible in the trash, and experience God through your own personal experience! People need that damned thing as some tangible link to God, he can be found in other ways!

Answer 3

Usually the argument goes like this. First they claim that those passages had a "cultural context" and were not meant to be inclusive of all women. Secondly they take examples of people like Deborah the judge in the OT or Priscilla in the NT and say that God can call women to positions of authority because Priscilla apparently with her husband explained the gospel more accurately to Apollos. How they square this with Paul's clear teaching about God ordained roles and his argument that goes back to Adam and Eve is anyone's guess.

Answer 4

I think a common verse used to dispute this is
galatians 3 vs 28 In christ there is no difference between Jew and Greek, slave and free person, male and female. You are all the same in Jesus Christ.
I can only answer from the methodist point of view as I was brought up methodist though no longer christian. But it is seen that Pual was only a man and a man of his time. Those thoughts were valuable to their society but no longer relevant to today

Answer 5

Well, after the church stopped executing people for belonging to different religions, working on Sunday and carving statues, I guess that opened the door to a lot of things.

A better question might be why would a woman seeking a leadership role be a Christian in the first place, since the faith has such a negative opinion of woman as a whole?

But then, obeying God has never been very high on my list of priorities either, so take my thoughts for whatever they're worth to you.

Answer 6

Did Jesus say it? If not, then why is it relevant. You're a Christian who follows the teachings of Jesus, right? Then why are you following the intolerant teachings of St. Paul over the tolerant teachings of Jesus. Paul's edicts directly contradict many of Jesus' teachings, yet so many Christians listen to Paul instead of Jesus. Why is that, unless it is because it serves those people's agendas? Or maybe they don't even realize who is saying what in the Bible and just follow everything they read without questioning.

Answer 7

The verses you quote were because women had just come out of paganism and were asking questions. They were instructed to ask their husbands and not disrupt the church. If you will read further you will see that Paul thanked the women for their service and the fact that some were mentioned before their husbands indicated that they were in position of authority. God doesn't see any difference in male and female when it comes to Christian service.

Answer 8

The bible was written by men to oppress women. How much of the Bible do you think the Vatican won't show you? Women should be allowed to be preachers as much as any man. Why should men get all the fun? And I'm sure that God did not really say that.

Answer 9

I do not think that male is the only one who can become mouthpieces of GOD.In the old-testament there also women who become prophet.also we must consider that some of the context in the Bible are not relevant to ours,because the bible sometimes speak about the culture of judaism.we must think in the way Jesus had shown us when he break the sabbath law.we must think in the hope of women are images of God.women are created to speak about God as men did. Also in the bible it speaks about equality and love.remember that law is not always binding in the christian Faith.

Answer 10

The Bible, while inspired by God, was written by humans. These humans brought their own ideas, knowledge/education, prejudices and customs of the day into their writings.

Women of Biblical times were nothing more than possessions. They had no rights, they were not educated and were second class citizens....so, of course the Bible would not be uplifting of having women in roles of leadership within churches.

However, women are as gifted as men when it comes to leading congregations, comforting the hurt, teaching others, etc..

For anyone to say that a woman should not be in leadership in church is quite wrong. For anyone to interpret the Bible in it's literal context does a great disservice to everyone...

Do we interpret Leviticus exactly? Do we punish people for their sins in the manner that the Bible says? Of course not..we recognize those things as barbaric and archaic...and look at those things in light of history of the time...same should be said of women in the Bible...it is a history lesson for us of how women were treated then...not a barometer of how they should be treated now.

Answer 11

By The Word no woman can justify taking such a place in opposition To God... Women have a purpose in God's plan and men have a purpose... each has a place... there can also be no interpritation of God's word that places Women as less than men in God's eyes.