Catholic Church says Protestant Churches are not "Churches"?

Question

Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation.

The document continued to state that Protestant churches cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles — and therefore their priestly ordinations are not valid.

Being Lutheran I have several issues with this whole situation. What are your thoughts? If you're comfortable with it, state your religious affiliation.

Answer 1

Here is the document. It states nothing new.


http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...


From Scripture, we can see that the Church:


is one, unified
Matthew 12:25, 16:18, John 10:16, John 17:20-23, Acts 4:32, Romans 12:5, Romans 16:17, 1 Corinthians 1:10-13, Corinthians 3:3-4, Corinthians 10:17, Corinthians 11:18-19, Corinthians 12:12-27, Corinthians 14:33, 2 Corinthians 12:20, Ephesians 4:3-6, Philippians 1:27, 2:2-3, 1 Timothy 6:3-5, Titus 3:9-10, James 3:16, 2 Peter 2:1

is holy, but not all who belong to it will be saved
Matthew 7:21–23, Ephesians 5:25–27, Revelation 19:7–8

is universal (ie, "katholikos" in Greek, or "Catholic")
Matthew 28:19–20, Revelation 5:9–10

is Apostolic
Matthew 16:18-19, Matthew 9:6-8, John 20:21-23, Acts 5:5, Ephesians 2:19–20

is hierarchical and has bishops (episkopos), priests (presbyteros or "elders"), and deacons (diakonos)
Acts 1:20, Acts 15:2-6, Acts 20:28, Acts 21:18, Philippians 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:1-2, 1 Timothy 5:17, Titus 1:7, Hebrews 11:2, 1 Peter 5:1, 1 Peter 2:25,

is the Pillar and Ground of Truth
1 Timothy 3:15

is the "light of the world", visible, cannot be hid
Matthew 5:14

was founded by Christ through Peter, whom He made the Church's earthly father, and the Gates of Hell cannot prevail against it
Matthew 16:18-19 (see also page on Peter as "The Rock" for evidence of Peter's authority among the Apostles)

While Scripture is evidence enough for the marks of Christ's Church, we can see in the writings of Ignatius -- written in the first century, within 67 years of Christ's resurrection, by a close friend and appointee of the Apostle Peter and friend of Polycarp -- that the early Church had a very Catholic interpretation of Scripture:


the Church was Divinely established as a visible society, the salvation of souls is its end, and those who separate themselves from it cut themselves off from God (Epistle to the Philadelphians)
the hierarchy of the Church was instituted by Christ (Epistles to the Philadelphians and the Ephesians)
the threefold character of the hierarchy (Epistle to the Magnesians)
the order of the episcopacy superior by Divine authority to that of the priesthood (Epistles to the Magnesians, Smyraenians, and the Trallians)
the importance of unity of the Church (Epistles to the Trallians, Philadelphians, and the Magnesians)
emphasis on the holiness of the Church (Epistles to the Smyraeans, Ephesians, Magnesians, Trallians, and Romans)

the catholicity of the Church (Letter to the Smyraeans)

the infallibility of the Church (Epistles to the Philadelphians and the Ephesians)
the doctrine of the Eucharist -- i.e., belief in Transsubstantiation or the Real Presence of Christ in Communion (Epistle to the Smyraeans)
the Incarnation (Epistle to the Ephesians)
the supernatural virtue of virgnity (Epistle to Polycarp)
the religious character of matrimony (Epistle to Polycarp)
the value of united prayer (Epistle to the Ephesians)
the primacy of the Chair of Peter (Epistle to the Romans, introduction)
a dencouncing of the (later Protestant) doctrine of private judgement in matters of religion (Epistle to the Philadelphians)1




Read the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Cyril of Jerusalem, Irenaeus, Polycarp, St. Augustine, etc... They are rich with Catholic doctrine -- and the earliest evidence we have for what the Church was like in its earliest days!



FYI:


In the 16th c., Luther, reacting to serious abuses and clerical corruption in the Latin Church, to his own heretical theological vision (see articles on sola scriptura and sola fide), and, frankly, to his own inner demons, removed those books from the canon that lent support to orthodox doctrine, relegating them to an appendix. Removed in this way were books that supported such things as prayers for the dead (Tobit 12:12; 2 Maccabees 12:39-45), Purgatory (Wisdom 3:1-7), intercession of dead saints (2 Maccabees 15:14), and intercession of angels as intermediaries (Tobit 12:12-15)


Luther wanted to remove the Epistle of James, Esther, Hebrews, Jude and Revelation. Calvin and Zwingli also both had problems with the Book of Revelation, the former calling it "unintelligible" and forbidding the pastors in Geneva to interpret it, the latter calling it "unbiblical". The Syrian (Nestorian) Church has only 22 books in the New Testament while the Ethiopian Church has 8 "extra." The first edition of the King James Version of the Bible included the "Apocryphal" (ie, Deuterocanonical) Books.

Answer 2

Outstanding answer Fr. Joseph . What did Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformer, state about the Bible? In his "Commentary On St. John," he stated the following: "We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we have received It from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of It at all." Regardless of what non-Catholic Christians may think or say, according to secular, objective historians, the Catholic Church alone preserved Sacred Scripture throughout the persecution of the Roman Empire and during the Dark Ages. All non-Catholic Christian denominations owe the existence of the Bible to the Catholic Church alone. Why did God choose the Catholic Church to preserve Scripture if It is not His Church? The Catholic Church was the first Christian denomination to commission a mass printing of the Bible by asking Johannes Gutenberg, the inventor of the printing press, to do so in 1447. Non-Catholic Christians may accuse the Catholic Church of not allowing the common people to read the Bible before the Reformation, but what good would it have done for the Catholic Church to widely distribute the Bible to the masses when over 90% of the common people were illiterate and couldn't read anyway? The Catholic Mass has always included Scriptural readings from both the Old and New Testaments and Catholic priests have always "preached" the Word of God to the common people throughout history. Love your enemies

Answer 3

I too was raised Lutheran.

There are so many problems with the Pope's statement that I'm not sure where to start.

Let's start with Apostolic Succession.

Where is that taught in the Bible?

Its not.

The Roman Catholic Church stopped teaching the truth over a thousand years ago.

The claim that they were ever the first church was a lie to start with.

One proof is that when they had a church council in the book of Acts, James, the younger sibling of Jesus was the Chairman of the Council Meeting, not Peter, who they claim was the first Pope.

That's only one proof, I give you 100 proofs but I can't type that fast.

Pastor Art

PS: Today I just call myself a Bible believing Christian.

Answer 4

There are many reasons why the catholic church is NOT the church that Christ established.

First they do NOT have "apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles" Peter was not the first pope for many reason, one being the fact that he was married (see source for more). Further more, it is a KNOWN fact that in A.D. 606 old emperor Phocus, who was himself a murderer and an adulterer, appointed Boniface III as the first pope. The succession can only be traced back to AD 606 and no further.

Did you know that, after the papacy was introduced, there was a period of seventy years in which there was no pope at all? Did you know that for another period of fifty years there were two lines of popes? And did you know that at one time there were three popes? They were Benedict XIII, Gregory XII, the French pope, and John XXIII, the Italian pope. Where does all this leave papal lineage and infallibility?

I am a member of the church that Jesus established, the church of Christ.

Answer 5

Bork,
Being a Lutheran, you then know that the RCC has no control over us and what we believe in. And, it has no right to tell us if we are doing it correctly or not. Luther took care of that for us when he tried to correct them!
Do you believe and confess all that the Lutheran church has asked us to? The Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed? The Augsburg Confession? The Large and Small Catechism? Those are our teachings and we KNOW they are right! We know that Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura are the way to go!
Be an arrogant Lutheran and do not be worried by what the vatican has set down.

Answer 6

Here is the full text of the new document that states nothing new: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

Most Christian denominations believe that each of them is the fullest version of the Church of Christ.

While the Catholic Church also believes that she is "the highest exemplar" of the mystery that is the Church of Christ, she does not claim that non-Catholic Churches are not truly Christian. The Catholic Church teaches:

Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.

Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him.

For more information, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, section 819: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p3.htm#819

With love in Christ.

Answer 7

As someone wrote about this elsewhere: "Nothing new here". Any Roman Catholic who speaks against Confessional Lutheran Theology obviously has read neither the Lutheran Confessions or the Bible.

The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther was summoned to explain himself before Cardinal Cajetan who was "confounded and embarrassed by Luther's superior knowledge of Scripture, Cajetan began to study the Bible himself. His commentaries grew more and more critical of Roman Doctrine. However, he continued to follow Rome" (1)

Luther continued to press for a General Council to discuss Doctrine in hope of returning the Roman Church back to the Bible. Although assured by the Pope and the Emperor that there would be a Council, it never came to pass. To this day they have never discussed Fr. Martin's revealed truth.

Fr. Martin did NOT leave the Roman Church, nor did he want to. He was excommunicated by the Pope as a heretic, although he was never tried, or convicted.

His Holiness comes from a long line of arrogant clerics who keep their head in the sand (or in a lower orifice) (If you think this is rude and in-appropriate, he just told me my Church is not a Church, and my beliefs which are all in the Bible are invalid).

Wait!... That means that the Pope has found the Bible to be invalid. Well I guess that means the Church of Rome or non-church of Rome isn't valid either.

Mark

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It is interesting to note that when one of our clergy decides to jump the fence to Rome (which isn't very often) they either end up as a parish priest, (and yes they get to keep their wife), or teaching in one of their Seminaries. Likewise, when a priest comes over to our side (not the dark side) through Colloquy they to can be Lutheran Pastors. Funny how that works.

It's time all of Christianity started to heed Scripture and "love one another" "love our neighbors as our selves"

Answer 8

The truth is the truth
This is not an attack on our brothers and sisters in Christ
Scripture reveals this Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18). By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).

By virtue of this divinely-appointed authority, the Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture (what books belong in the Bible) at the end of the fourth century. We therefore believe in the Scriptures on the authority of the Catholic Church. After all, nothing in Scripture tells us what Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith. Instead, the Bible says that the Church, not the Scriptures, is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith (Matt. 18:17). It is through the teaching authority and Apostolic Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6; 1 Cor. 11:2) of this Church, who is guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16,26; 16:13), that we know of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and the manifold wisdom of God. (cf. Ephesians 3:10).

Answer 9

The Pope is right. Jesus founded only one church.

Any salvific power that is present in your Lutheran congregation is provided by Jesus Christ, through the one and only church that he ever founded, authorized, empowered, and personally guaranteed ... the Catholic Church ... because that's the way Jesus set things up.

The office of the papacy was established by Christ and given to Peter while Jesus still walked on this earth.

Jesus also gave the power of binding and loosing specifically to the apostles, who were and are the bishops and rulers of the church.

And since Jesus clearly intended the church to exist until the end of time, and he also knew that the apostles wouldn't live forever, the power and the authority Jesus gave to his apostles would be handed down to their duly ordained successors.

This makes the authorative and God-ordained offices of Pope and Bishop the only living links with Jesus Christ and it clearly designates the Catholic Church as his one, true church.

Your Lutheran denomination separated itself from the God-given authority of the true church, some 550 years ago, and for no good purpose ... so I'm not surprised you have "issues" with it.

But Jesus certainly knew what he was doing.

That's why I'm Catholic, of course ... and Catholic by choice!

Answer 10

Comfortable or not, the facts are the facts. A church founded by a radical Catholic priest a few hundred years ago simply cannot be compared with the Church founded by Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago. Nor can such a church claim any of the promises Christ made to His own Church. Especially since Jesus Himself clearly indicated that there was to be no other church founded in His name.