Jehovah's Witnesses and The Great Crowd?

Question

From what i have studied..most JW's today, when they are saved, become part of "the great crowd," but there are 144,000 in the annoited class that will reign and rule with Christ, I found verses that show this idea to be false... Can any JW's explain these discrepencies to me?

1) Rev 14:4 says that the 144,000 our those not defiled with woman, so only virgin men are in the 144,000.

According to JW, the Great Crown wont be in Heaven...but

2) In Rev 7:19 the great crowd is in the temple, and Rev 14:17 tells us the temple is in Heaven

3) John 10:16 says that there will be one flock, with one shepherd, not two different groups.

4) John 12:26 says that wherever Jesus is, we will be with Him, so how can the GC be in a seperate place than Him.


So ya... let me know what you think

Answer 1

I am forever confused by this belief also. Here is what I have found:

Jesus has a right and a left, 2 GROUPS. Those to the right are saved, those to the left are damned. How is it that you come up with 3? Heavenly hope, Earthly hope, and destroyed???

Matthew 25:31-34,41,46
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

JWs have 2 groups of sheep - joint heirs with Christ, and "other sheep"... except Jesus only mentioned those who may claim an inheritance as being on His right side...and according to JWs the "other sheep" are not in the new covenant with Jesus, and are not joint heirs with Christ....so which side of Jesus are they on?

According to Jesus, the "other sheep" are called to him and all become one fold.... which means ONE HOPE.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 10:7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

Romans 8:1,2,8,9
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Wouldn't that imply that there is NO CHANCE of eternal life if you do not have the anointing of the Holy Spirit? If you are of the flesh you will NOT be pleasing to God.

Answer 2

[1]The fact that the 144,000"are virgins" does not mean that members of this class are necessarily unmarried in the flesh.The apostle Paul wrote to Christians who had a heavenly calling that,whereas there are advantages to Christian singleness,marriage is preferable under certain circumstances(1Cor.7:1,2,36,37)
What characterises this class is a spiritual virginity.They have avoided spiritual adultery with worldly politics,and with false religion(James4:4;Rev.17:5).As the betrothed bride of Christ,they have kept themselves pure, "without a blemish in among a crooked and twisted generation."(Phil.2:15).
[2]The great crowd mentioned at Rev.7:9 as "standing before the throne" of God,does not require them to be in heaven.They are simply in the sight of God,compare Psalm 11:4.
[3] John 10:16 reads:"And I have OTHER sheep,which are NOT OF THIS fold,those also I must bring,and they will listen to my voice,and they WILL BECOME one flock,one shepherd."
You cannot take part of a scripture and take it out of context and expect to make an argument.Clearly from John 10:16 it is plain to see that Jesus was talking about two classes;"little flock"(Luke 12:32)and "great crowd"(Rev.7:9) or "other sheep"as he refered to them in John 10:16
[4]Jesus' words found at John 12:26 show that despite his impending death,Jesus was obviously not just thinking of himself.He was highlighting the marvelous reward that awaited those who followed Jesus and ministered to him.The reward of being honoured by the Father and being able to associate with Christ in his kingdom.Again,you missed the point.We today have Christ with us,but he is in a seperate place,isnt he?

Answer 3

numerous Bibles go-reference this scripture to the e book of Daniel, which notes that angels additionally make up an mind-blowing crowd. the great crowd referenced there refers to all of the angels jointly, which the context in simple terms as easily exhibits. i could factor out to you Matthew 5:5, wherein Jesus says the "meek shall inherit the earth." You your self be conscious that the a hundred and forty four,000 flow to heaven, and that i do no longer think of all people believes Jesus replaced into touching on the depraved whilst he mentioned that the "meek" shall inherit the earth. So regardless of if it truly is not any longer the a hundred and forty four,000 and it truly is not any longer the depraved, what team is left to inherit the earth keep the great crowd of righteous human beings that are no longer of the a hundred and forty four,000?

Answer 4

(John 10:7 Therefore Jesus said again: “Most truly I say to YOU, I am the door of the sheep. 14 I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me, 16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.)

1st & 2nd rules of context ‘must agree with the sentence and the paragraph / chapter’.

Just as Jesus is NOT a physical door, but a spiritual door, just as Jesus is not a physical shepherd, but a spiritual shepherd, just as Jesus’ disciples are not physical sheep but are spiritual sheep.

The sheep fold is not physical Israel, but is spiritual Israel.

The context is an illustration using physical things to represent spiritual things. Spiritual Israel is made up of Jews and Gentiles. Leaving the question of who are represented by the other sheep?

(Gal 6:15 For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation [is something]. 16 And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.)

Matthew chapter 25 is a continuation of Matt 24, the end of the age or system of things,

At Matt 25:31-46, You find the King (Jesus), his brothers, (little flock Luke 12:32, Heb.2:12-16), sheep (righteous ones on the right, other sheep), goats (accursed ones on the left).

Today, according to Jesus’ illustration we have Jesus’ brothers, the (other) sheep, and the (wicked) goats.

Jesus' brothers and the other sheep become one flock, one shepherd.

Different hopes, same rules and principals.

Different hopes, same shepherd.

Answer 5

1. Revelation is largely symbolic. Revelation 14:4 emphasizes the fact that the 144,000 are not associated with "Babylon the Great" and have not committed spiritual fornication (such as false religion has done repeatedly over the centuries) which disrespects pure worship.

(Revelation 14:3-4) the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins.

(Revelation 18:2-3) Babylon the Great [the world empire of false religion] has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird! For because of the wine of the anger of her fornication all the nations have fallen victim, and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her


2. Revelation 7:15 uses a different term for "temple" than is used at Revelation 14:17. The earlier term for "temple" does not refer to the inner sanctuary, the Most Holy. Rather, it is the earthly courtyard of God’s spiritual temple. The word here translated “temple,” can refer to the entire structure erected for Jehovah’s worship. Today, this is a spiritual structure that embraces both heaven and earth.


3. This is a remarkably silly argument, since the very verse cited shows Jesus referring to "other sheep which are not of this fold". Of course, the "little flock" and "other sheep" are united under the one shepherd Jesus Christ.

(John 10:16) And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

(Luke 12:32) Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom [to rule alongside Christ]


4. John 12:26 does not read as this questioner supposes. That verse plainly means that a true Christian would be willing to serve God even to the death, as Jesus was willing to do. After Armageddon, all true worshippers will be together in God's Messianic Kingdom.

(John 12:26) If anyone would minister to me, let him follow me, and where I am there my minister will be also. If anyone would minister to me, the Father will honor him.


While a limitted number of humans will be resurrected to heaven to share in ruling over mankind, the vast majority (literally more than 99.9%) of Jehovah's Witnesses expect an EARTHLY hope, the same hope given to Adam and Eve.
(Genesis 1:28) God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill THE EARTH and subdue it [caps added]
(Genesis 2:17) You must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die [so never eating from that tree means never dying]

Interestingly, the Scriptures are full of references to this earthly hope.
(Psalms 37:11) 'the meek will possess the earth'
(Proverbs 2:21) 'upright will reside in the earth'
(Isaiah 45:18) 'God formed the earth to be inhabited'
(Matthew 5:5) 'the mild will inherit the earth'
(Revelation 21:3) The tent of God is with mankind

Learn more:
http://watchtower.org/e/lmn/index.htm?article=article_10.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_06.htm
http://jw-media.org/beliefs/trueworship.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/jt/

http://watchtower.org/e/dg/index.htm?article=article_11.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/pr/index.htm?article=article_07.htm

Answer 6

Was everyone in Israel of the Old Testament a Levi priest?
Clearly not.

Were the Levites not considered apart of the flock of Israel?
Again No.

The structure of God's kingdom does not change. Just as everyone was not a Levi priest in the past, today not everyone will not be a part of the Order of Melchizedek.

Answer 7

Romans...I love the questions that you ask and the scriptures that you bring to compare.....

Answer 8

(Revelation 7:13-17) “13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.””

Spirit creatures don't have tears...anyway check out where the next scripture says the "tent of God is"

(Revelation 21:3-4) “. . .With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.””

"MANKIND".....

(Psalm 72:8) “. . .And he will have subjects from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth.”

Subjects where? ON THE EARTH...ruled from heaven by Jesus and the 144,000, but who will they rule over? those living on the earth.

As for them being virgin men, no, there is deeper meaning to the scripture, but you must study.

The 144,000 were bought from the earth to rule as kings and priests and to judge with Jesus. God's original purpose for men to inhabit the earth has not changed.

(Revelation 5:9-10) “. . .And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth. . .”

(Revelation 20:4) “4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.. . .”

(Revelation 14:3-5) “3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.”

Compare "virgins" with...
(James 4:4) “. . .Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God. . .”

(2 Corinthians 11:2) “For I am jealous over YOU with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised YOU in marriage to one husband that I might present YOU as a chaste virgin to the Christ.”

Answer 9

hmm... well, I can tell ya from my study of all the worlds major belief systems over the past 25 years (including JWs) and intensive study of the Bible that it seems to me that JWs interpretation of prophesy does gel with the Scriptures and they are definitely the largest organization of Christians wherein *every* member is *continually* preaching God's Kingdom for their entire lives like Jesus did. So I give them a lot of credit!

Here are the basic Bible truths that will help you understand why the JWs are the way they are:

God created mankind from the dust of the earth and He intended mankind to live forever and never die in that paradisaical Eden which was to be expanded to include the entire planet. God doesnt make mistakes, but satan tricked the first humans and told them they wouldn't die if they disobeyed God but that they would become like God. So they sinned and died. They did not go to heaven. Mankind was never intended to be in heaven, mankind was created from the dust of the earth to live on earth.

Its interesting to note that satan deceived Eve by lying to her and telling her she would not die (Genesis 3:4) now most religions in the world teach that after your body dies that you go on living in some other realm... that you do not die...

Most of the world's religions still believe in satan's original lie. You will find very few religions that believe YHWH/Jehovah who gave Solomon the wisdom to write Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20 & 9:5, and David to write Psalm 146:4 and Moses to record what YHWH told Adam at Genesis 3:19 telling us exactly what happens to us when we die. And when is the resurrection of those who are asleep in death?
Yhshua/Jesus tells us at John 5:28, 29; John 11:11
And before that Daniel was told by YHWH to write Daniel 12:2. All these Scriptures expose satan's first deception that "you will not die" as the satanic lie that it is!

Only a few are "bought from the earth";
God's original purpose for mankind, which He made from the dust of the earth, was to have everlasting life in Eden/Paradise on earth. He will restore that original purpose, and the few who were "bought from the earth" will rule with Christ over that "new earth".

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them, 'Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'

Revelation 1:6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

Revelation 5:9, 10 And they sing a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open its seals; because thou hast been slain, and hast redeemed to God, by thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth.

Revelation 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

Revelation 21:1-4 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruits of those sleeping he became, for since through man [is] the death, also through man [is] a rising again of the dead, for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power -- for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet -- the last enemy is done away -- death; for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him, and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

So, all those Scriptures explain who and how many go to heaven and why and what they will do and for how long and what will happen after the 1,000 years.

the question I had was 'why do all JWs preach from door to door?

1 Peter 2:21- For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps

Luke 4:43- But He said to them, 'I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose.'

Matthew 4:17- From that time Jesus began to preach and say, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand'

Matthew 10:7- And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand

Luke 10:1-3- Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come. And He was saying to them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. "Go; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves.

Acts 20:20- I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly and from house to house

1 Corinthians 9:16- For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.

Romans 10:10- How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, 'HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!'

2 Timothy 4:2-5- preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Yhshua/Jesus was sent by YHWH/Jehovah to show us the way to inherit the Kingdom. I love all the Scriptures that speak about the restoration of the Garden of Eden/Paradise that the first humans forsook in their greedy desire to "be like God". YHWH/Jehovah and His son Yhshua/Jesus designed this planet to be a paradise and they designed humankind to be perfect and never die; their original design was temporarily ruined by satan, but it will soon be restored and satan's way of divided governments, politics, greed and war will be destroyed. HALLE LU JAH ! !

Isaiah 65:17-25
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people; and there shall be heard in her no more the voice of weeping and the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days; for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree shall be the days of my people, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for calamity; for they are the seed of the blessed of Jehovah, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass that, before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith Jehovah.

Psalm 37:9-11
For evil-doers shall be cut off; But those that wait for Jehovah, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: Yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and he shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Proverbs 2:21
For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it.

Revelation 21:2-7
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

2 Peter 3:13
But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else.

Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

agape!

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