Oh gosh, what did the Pope really say?!?

Question

With thanks to Beetleman, for the link to the url for the full text.

Here are the *other* words in the text (emphasis in caps added) -

"It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to AFFIRM CORRECTLY that the Church of Christ IS PRESENT and OPERATIVE in the CHURCHES AND ECCLESIAL COMMUNITIES NOT YET FULLY IN COMMUNION WITH THE Catholic Church, ON ACCOUNT OF the elements of sanctification and TRUTH that are present in them. (9) Nevertheless, the word "subsists" can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe... in the "one" Church); and this "one" Church subsists in the Catholic Church. (10) "

"Third Question: Why was the expression "subsists in" adopted instead of the simple word "is"?

Response: The use of this expression, which indicates the full identity of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church, does not change the doctrine on the Church. Rather, it comes from and brings out more clearly the fact that there are "numerous elements of sanctification and of truth" which are found outside her structure, but which "as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity" (11).

"It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church" (12).


Does the above sound like the Pope said that there is no truth of Christ in churches other than the Catholic Church? No!

Here's the url for those interested in reading the full text for themselves:

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=154889&eng=y

John W, you sound very angry. I sincerely suggest you research what the Catholic Church teaches before you get angrier, because your answers show you do not really know what the Catholic Church teaches - I say this not to disparage you, but in hope of a better dialogue between Catholics and non Catholics ie other than a shouting and abusive match.

akoypinoy - I invite you to research what the Catholic Church really teaches, before you make any judgements.

Bill Mac - Sadly, what you accuse the Catholic Church of is exactly what you are doing yourself, and more - the only difference is the Catholic Church ISN'T doing those things you accuse it of, if only you will read carefully what the Pope said. In fact, the Catholic Church is more *inclusive* than you are, whilst you exclude the Catholic Church and you demand that the Catholic Church should be more inclusive in turn?

Answer 1

John W,

If your words are any reflection on non-denominational "Christianity", I want no part of it.

I was a Protestant Christian for 40 years and now am a Catholic Christian, I never was subjected to the kind of blind hatred of the Catholic Church that you have.

Jesus said that we are to love each other as he loved us, I am not feeling that from you.

I will Pray for you and hope that Peace and understanding will replace hate.

Good Luck and God Bless!

Answer 2

He basically said that other church's (with a small "c") are wounded because they are separated from the Catholic Church (with a capital "C") through which the graces of Jesus come because it is HIS Church on Earth.
Crabby Blind Guy: I think the Pope has had it with the ecumenism stuff because the Catholic Church keeps giving stuff up for the sake of ecumenism and the other Church's give nothing. There is only the Truth to give up and that will never happen and at this point I would say if anybody wants to be ecumenical--they should start with being more friendly to the Catholic Church and not the other way around. I believe the Catholic Church is just about to start wiping the dust of the other Church's off their feet.

Answer 3

You should have been around yesterday when the story first broke. There was wailing and gnashing of Protestant teeth like nothing I've ever seen here before. I find it ironic that the same folks who bash us Catholics and tell us that we're not "real" Christians had a whining hissy fit when they thought they were getting the same treatment.

As you pointed out, the Pope did not say that the Catholic Church is the only means of salvation. He did say that Protestant and Orthodox churches are "wounded" in the sense of being incomplete without the spiritual authority handed down from the apostles to their successors.

Maybe the next time, people will do their own research before jumping to conclusions. And even better, maybe they'll stop and remember how *they* felt before they hurt a brother or sister in Christ by accusing them of not being real Christians.

I can wish and pray, anyhow.

Answer 4

I agree with those who have stated that the pope is only stating church doctrine that was instituted well before Vatican II to clarify problems that have risen within the Church, i.e. liturgical matters. In this document there is no mention of whom will or will not be saved, because that decision is not to man, and no man would ever make this declaration.
Catholicism is a lot more than the pope, it is the Church instituted by Christ himself, and the only one to date back to the start of Christianity, and this document just states the obvious.
Only those who are not Catholics, who by the way also follow other people as their leaders, pastors, spiritual guru's etc... would comment that we blindly follow the pope.
Papal infallibility is only used when addressing Dogmatic Statements, and even these are performed by the Magisterium of the Church, which is composed of the pope, the theologians and the people, yes the people.
God bless and thanks for the original article.

Answer 5

Thanks for the post.

This may have to be done over and over in order to attempt to quell the uprising caused by misunderstanding.

The Pope did not say anything new. This was not a statement he made...he only reaffirmed that which the Catholic Church has always known...for 2000 years!

This belief does not mean that Protestant's cannot be saved, nor does it mean that they cannot have Christ.

Protestants try to remember, that your religions have only been around 500+ years. Catholicism is 2000+ years old. This teaching has always been part of Catholicism and was so back when we were all Catholic. Just because there was a split in the 1500s does not mean that anything changed for the Catholic Church. It has continued as always from Christ to current day.

By the way...I'm a convert. I was protestant for 30 years.

Answer 6

Are you all so blinded as to not see what non-Catholics are upset about?

Q2 The Church of Christ can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone... "this "one" Church subsists in the Catholic Church."

Q3 ""It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects,.. whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church"

Q5 Because they are not Catholic they are "...deprived of a constitutive element of the Church... cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called "Churches" in the proper sense."

These are nothing new. The Catholic idea of "unity" is for everyone to become Catholic. Despite the ecumenical rhetoric from the Vatican in recent decades, they still deny that the Church of Christ includes all believers... taking their stand on man made doctrines and traditions instead of God, His Word and His indwelling Holy Spirit.

Christian brothers and sisters... do not be alarmed or deceived... the Church of Christ simply also exists outside the influence of the Catholic Church, and it includes everyone of us who are Christians. Our "Churches" cause division, but our unity and oneness is in Spirit and truth, not our denominational affiliations. The Church of Christ existed before the Catholic Church was established by Constantine, and will continue to be in existence until the end of days.

Answer 7

Thank you for almost all i've see is a distortion,misquoting or not quoting at all.
Non Catholic Christians in Grace are also members of the Body of Christ.
The Catholic Church is the fullness of the means of Grace but those outside full communion can be sanctified by the same grace of Jesus and the Spirit to the glory of the Father.

Answer 8

The language used in the document is too technical and seemed to have been chosen to allow, at some future time, "plausible deniability". Note the following phrase: " numerous elements of of sanctification and of truth" which are found outside her structure, but which "as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic unity" What this really mean is that Vatican will, for the time being tolerate the existence of this Christian groups but will exert vigorous effort to make them recognize the Pope as the supreme head of the entire Christian world.

The litmus test of the recognition of Vatican of the presence of the truth of Christ in churches other than the Catholic Church is when it explicitly admit that:
1. Christian marriage in non-Catholic ceremony is valid
before God and the couples so married are not "living in
sin".
2. Non-Catholic Christian baptism is valid to remove the
stain of "original sin".
3. Confessing one's sins to God and being sorry for them
as is practiced in non-Catholic Christian churches is,
before God, is as valid as confessing them to a Catholic
priest.

Unless the Catholic Church admits these accommodations, the statement that the "Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation" is religious double talk.

The other issue of course is that all other non-Christian religious beliefs have no salvific value whatsoever.

Answer 9

Nothing new here. Although individual experiences may have varied, I was taught that Catholicism was the only way to go, and all others were to be pitied. I think the Pope was just restating the obvious really.

Answer 10

Yes, it's really interesting how so many people -- especially in the media -- just aren't getting this story right.

Some of them are even accusing the Pope of saying that non-Catholics can't be saved. Nowhere does yesterday's document ever say something like that.

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