Was Joseph Smith a liar, or was he supremely duped by Satan ... or both?

Question

Joseph Smith supposedly "translated" the "golden plates" using the Urim and Thummim (a use completely alien to that recorded in Holy Scripture) word for word, letter for letter, yet numerous revisions have been made to it; introduced doctrines blatantly contrary to the Word of God; claimed that all Christian denominations were apostate (except the new one he established of course); made a large number amazingly silly and false prophecies (note: the Scriptures teach clearly that anyone falsely speaking a prophecy in the name of the Lord, if that prophecy fails to come to pass is to be stoned to death!). So did Satan appear to Joseph Smith, disguised as an "angel of light", show him some phoney golden plates with a big, fake history of people who never existed, etc., or did Smith just make it all up himself?

Rmpton 2001, The Urim and Thummim were basically "Yes/No" stones. Almost like a sacred "lottery" if you will. The question was asked of God, and trusting in his sovereign providence, the stones of equal size and shape were kept in a "pocket" on the breatplate worn by the high priest. One stone was drawn per question, and God's answer was given. A very simple and effective "judgement" or "revelation". Smith claimed that he had these two stones (preposterous from the get-go) and that they had the power to translate ancient texts into English. How about a good education for doing that, eh?

Lilmisskayto, actually the option of madness is somewhat included in the deception thema. The second suggestion, that it's true is not even allowable. It is quite impossible that it's true.

Answer 1

I believe he was duped by Satan. Satan has the power to create visions etc., and we are warned in the Bible to be on guard against this type of thing. When John finished writing the book of Revelation, that was the end of all visions, revelations etc., In fact, Revelation is God's last word to mankind. Thankfully we have the complete Word of God today and the study of it very quickly enables the believer to dismiss claims such as Joseph Smith and many others as just another lie of Satan. Satan will always present yet another religion to add to the already confused masses who refuse to search out the scriptures for themselves.
It seems there are numerous religions which were built on nothing more than the claim of one person that they "had a vision" yet if people studied the Word of God, they would be in a strong position to be able to discern truth from error. It's little wonder that today there are so many religions in the world as Jesus said this would happen in the last days. The Bible also tells us that in the last days men will no longer be able to keep to "sound doctrine" and would give heed to seducing spirits and follow after false doctrine. I have noticed that all these religions will offer a "new and better way" to heaven and will nearly always claim that the Lord gave them a "special vision" Don't believe it! We can't update God. The only way is the way of the cross and these so-called visions are not from the Lord. During the 7 year tribulation Satan will give power to a statue and cause it to speak so that the people will hail him as God. The Bible is clear on this issue as we are warned to try the spirits to see whether or not they are from the Lord. i.e. don't believe everything that appears to be a miracle as Satan has the power to work them as well and thereby decieve the masses.

Answer 2

Hmmm, interesting question.

Loaded premise, "clever" use of quotation marks ...

But the answers are even more interesting! (I mean, "tax problems" at the age of 14??? Please!)

Next question: what use was accorded to the Urim and Thummim in the Holy Scripture?

1 Samuel 28:6
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

Sounds like something that gave revelation from God.


Exodus 28:30
And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron’s heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.

Sounds like something that Aaron used to help judge the people.


Numbers 27:21
And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before the LORD: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.

Again, assistance from the Lord in judgement.


Point being, how does "translation by the power of God" differ significantly from "revelation from God" or "judgement of God"? You may disagree that translation is a valid use (given the scarcity of references to the Urim and Thummim in the Bible, this is a hard position to support), but for translation to be a "completely alien" use????

Answer 3

I have not studied in depth about Joseph Smith or his translation for the vision of the golden plates. I would only assume that he based his knowledge upon his own available references . The only fault would be to make it into a religious symbol for others to follow. I have had many visions but they are only that and not anything other. I believe he was in search of God and along the way he was met with that vision and he used it as a road marker on the way he took to finding information in his time.

Answer 4

Probably both. It obviously wasn't God, since the BoM and other Mormon texts contradict the Bible, Smith made several false prophecies, and the story of the "translation" of the BoM should have resulted in a book that needed no changes since God supposedly wouldn't allow the translation to continue if a word wasn't correct.

Answer 5

Of course, jealousies raged and stories spread.
After all, if you said you'd seen God, and you were not a minister, what type of response do you think YOU would get from the 'landed gentry'??!!

In fact, the stories of both sides are just so rife, and the claims so multiple and inconsistent by those who opposed him that there be only one possible avenue for anyone to solve the 'mystery' of Joseph Smith ... and that is, as the Saviour Himself said, to try his doctrine: In fact, Jesus said of Himself, "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself"
He also said, regarding prophets:
"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

A thorough reading and testing of the Book of Mormon and a dedicated investigation of the Church itself [that is, from the INSIDE] are the only ways to determine the "fruits" of Joseph Smith.
If you are serious and sincere in your Q, you will take it to the Lord in prayer ... and He will answer your prayers.

But by the tone of your Q and the spirit of most of the other respondents so far, I doubt that many involved in this Q are genuine enough to truly and sincerely do so.

So, in this life, you will never find out if Joseph Smith was a fraudster or not.

Answer 6

Smith came from a super religious family, but did not have a particular cult they subscript to as a family. They belonged to different organizations at different times, even after Smith's 1st Vision.

Smith's "Book of Mormon', a poorly written 2-dimensional morality play, semi-autobiographical, political commentary and social explanation on the origins of the Indians is the culmination of Smith's stories he told to entertain his family. Smith's preoccupation with 'treasure digging' by divination was common knowledge among his neighbors, and was not held in very high regard.

The Golden Plates was conceived by Smith as a 'precursor' to his horrible story, but since he either did not write well, or didn't like to write at all, he enlisted the aid of a 'scribe' who would write down what Smith related under the guise of 'translating'. The Plates were never in sight during this process, but Smith placed his seerstone and face into his hat and began dictating his story. The BoM place names coincide nicely with New York/Pennsylvania/Ontario place names.

Whether he was deceived by Satan or enlightened by God is irrelevant. He basically pulled off one of the biggest, yet most transparent hoaxes in all history, with the possible exception of christianity.

Answer 7

As Satan can appear to anyone in any form he wishes, it could be that Joseph Smith was taken in and lied to by the evil one. However, I was not there at the time and I don't know the man's heart. My thought is that he wasn't a liar either. He believed what he was saying. Its a possibility that Joseph Smith probably needed some mental health intervention.

Answer 8

I think he didn't believe the modern day religion so he started his own. The golden plates can't be seen today so do they really exist? The old manuscripts of the Bible can still be produced. So I doubt it. There are too many contradictions with the Bible. Some say there are contradictions in the Bible too. From my study the contradictions they claim are not what the Bible says.

Answer 9

Obviously your speaking in clear ignorance. Have you taken the chance to visit one of their congregations a couple times? I did. If you never have gone to a church function, or know very many Mormon individuals then I agree with you, 'cause I was where you were about 5 years ago, until I made friends with someone that turned out to be a person who supposedly had horns. As far as I see it, they are the most devout clean cut.. almost to the point of innocent individuals on the space of the planet. They don't drink.. at least the good ones, they don't cheat on wives, at least the good ones. They STRONGLY believe in the family unit, which sure could help our world today.There idologies are so arcaic (sp) and definantly not of this world, like they can't accept homos, they believe man and woman should be married, not live together first,they don't believe in liquor, just like the Arabs... they put an over exhuberant amount of time into their immediate families. They believe in a God, a literal son, and in a holy spirt. They believe that man (individually) must be punished for their own sins and not Adams transgression. They believe that through the attonement of "Christ" all... man may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances found in the Gospel. (King James version of the Bible) They believe They believe in the first four principles of the gospel, Faith, Repentence, Baptisum (by emersion), and laying on of hands for the gift of the Holly Spirit. Found in the Bible. They stictly inforce the 10 Commandments which we as supposed Christians/Jews received from Moses.

They have so many laws it's in my opinion an impossible religion to live... but there is a lot of truth. Personally they scare me... but I give them credit to live thir beliefs. Many Bishps in perishes try to get members to achieve simple Christ like principles... yet fall short in their many attempts. Just look at the world in general!

I give em' credit... and I don't choose to fully join em' because I would never be able to live up to all their higher laws. Forget Joseph Smith! Look at the individuals... we are told not to judge a book by it's cover.. but their cover is pretty neat I think. I just wouldn't be able to shine like most of them seem to.

Also.. it is my understanding that J.S. died as a marter. I personally wouldn't die for anyone or anything unless I truly believed in it. And he only wrote the book you mentioned when he was I think 13???

If your a Christian... we may show them up a little bit by saying that we at least live by God's greatest commandment, and that was "Love they neighbour as thyself"... If I die and sit befor a GOD... even if there is one.. at least I'd be happy to say I could do at least that!

Answer 10

Joseph Smith did his translating in the state of New York. There are some really good, edible mushrooms that grow wild there, and some that look almost the same, that have some... interesting qualities. I'm not saying he was stoned out of his gourd when he had his "visions", I wasn't there. I'm just saying it is possible.