Trinity~ fact or fiction? Serious replies only please!?

Question

Please everyone without becoming hostile, can you BIBLICALLY give me an argument for and against the "trinity". I know that the word trinity is not in the Bible. I also would like to not see John 1:1 only because I have looked this up extensively and have found it interpreted as~~ the word was A god. In 5 or 6 different (non Jehovahs Witnesses) opinions. If you have old testament scripture to support or deny it that would be awesome! Thank you all!

I only say not to use John 1:1 because I want to see where else it may be written. I looked up other Biblical scholars (non witnesses to see how they interpreted it and they agreed with the witnesses....one was an atheist who new the language and said the same thing)

Answer 1

I just wish that these answer"ers" would READ some of the evidence, CONSIDER some of the evidence, before regurgitating their "sunday school" lessons. And I want to say THANK YOU to Sciphyguy (sp?) for having the sense to simply DO THE RESEARCH-
ps saying that "The Word was a god" is not the same thing as admitting to more than one god, notice the lack of a capitol "G"- this was a way of saying he is GREAT like a god. It is used as a TITLE.

TIME and again, Jesus showed that he was a creature separate from God and that he, Jesus, had a God above him, a God whom he worshiped, a God whom he called "Father." In prayer to God, that is, the Father, Jesus said, "You, the only true God." (John 17:3) At John 20:17 he said to Mary Magdalene: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." (RS, Catholic edition) At 2 Corinthians 1:3 the apostle Paul confirms this relationship: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." Since Jesus had a God, his Father, he could not at the same time be that God.

The apostle Paul had no reservations about speaking of Jesus and God as distinctly separate: "For us there is one God, the Father, . . . and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 8:6, JB) The apostle shows the distinction when he mentions "the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels." (1 Timothy 5:21, RS Common Bible) Just as Paul speaks of Jesus and the angels as being distinct from one another in heaven, so too are Jesus and God.

Jesus' words at John 8:17, 18 are also significant. He states: "In your own Law it is written, 'The witness of two men is true.' I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me." Here Jesus shows that he and the Father, that is, Almighty God, must be two distinct entities, for how else could there truly be two witnesses?

Jesus further showed that he was a separate being from God by saying: "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." (Mark 10:18, JB) So Jesus was saying that no one is as good as God is, not even Jesus himself. God is good in a way that separates him from Jesus.

http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/article_06.htm

Answer 2

The concept of the Trinity developed as the early church began to struggle with heresy and passages of scripture (Constantine had nothing to do with it). Some of the scripture passages with which they struggled are:

a. Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" These words were spoken by Jesus before his ascension.

b. Acts 7:55 "But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God."

c. Revelation 22:12-13 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." These words are spoken by Jesus as he promises his return. Elsewhere these words are used only of God.

d. John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go I will send him to you." In these words Jesus is speaking of the Holy Spirit.

The early church had to reach a way of understanding Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father. They knew from Deuteronomy that there is only one God. However, the scripture contained words that spoke of Jesus' divinity and the Holy Spirit had become a powerful presence that filled their lives and witnessed to the truth.

So they tried to explain the scripture by saying that there is one God revealed in three persons. This doctrine became (after much debate and work :) ) the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

Hope that this helps.

Pastor John

Addendum: As to John 1:1, the scripture says, "logos en pros ton Theon" I'm sorry I don't have the ability to type the actual Greek here. I have however used the grammar. The word God (Theon) is capitalized. Its meaning can only be (I am translating quite literally) "Word is with God"

Eagle Woman: You are correct that the original Greek has little or no punctuation nor capitalization. This makes it very difficult at times to distinquish sentences, etc. However, the reference to God is often capitalized by the authors to distinquish the God from the gods.

Answer 3

No hostility here:
I have never seen a translation (aside from Watchtower's) which uses the word "a" before God in that context. That would completely contradict the Bible and the Jewish religion that held that there is one God. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is called God. Jesus claimed to be God by saying, "I and my Father are one."
And of course, the Father is God. You're right, the word "Trinity" does not appear in the Bible. I am of the opinion that God can reveal Himself as He chooses and limiting Him to being a trinity is not correct. I hope that helps.

Answer 4

The Jewish idea of God is that God is One and Indivisible. We cannot divide God up into separate parts, where each part of God is UnEqual to each of the other parts, but somehow they are one and the same. The Hebrew Scriptures describes God as an absolute One, but the Christian's New Testament describes the Christian idea of God as divisible into three parts called a trinity. In the Christian's New Testament, Jesus at one point claims to have different knowledge than other parts of the Christian Trinity. For example, Matthew 24:36 or Mark 13:32. In another verse, Jesus does not have the same power as other parts of the Christian Trinity, for example, Luke 23:34. And in Matthew 26:42, Jesus's will is not the same as the will of the Father. Indeed, Jesus often contrasted himself with the Father, for example, in John 14:28, or Luke 18:19. Furthermore, Jesus supposedly said that the punishment for blaspheming against one part of the Trinity is not the same punishment for blaspheming against another part of the Trinity. In the Hebrew Scriptures, however, God is One, as we read in Deuteronomy 6:4, as well as in Isaiah 44:6, where God tells us, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." When Isaiah tells us that God said, "I am the first," it means that God has no father. When Isaiah tells us that God said, "I am the last," it means that God has no literal son. And when Isaiah tells us that God said, "Besides me there is no God," it means that God does not share being God with any other god, or demi-god, or semi-god, or persons, and there is no trinity.

Answer 5

I refer to Luke 3:21, the Baptism of Jesus. While Jesus was in the water, the Holy Spirit descended as a Dove. The Father's voice came down from Heaven. God was either a ventriloquist, an illusionist or both: or He manifested Himself as one God, with Three Persons as One, a mystery that those who make it to Heaven will have eternity to sit at His feet and be enlightened. The first Old Testament reference would be Gen. 1:26-Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, in Our likeness, and let them rule over the fish.....
Some of the caps are mine, for emphasis, but this is the first reference to support the Triune Nature of one God. This is in the NIV, NAS, KJV and NKJV editions of canonized scripture. I don't have the address without looking it up, [in Acts] but when Stephen was stoned to death, He saw Jesus at the right hand of God. Constantine was more known for bringing in the practice of praying to saints. It was palatabe to pagans because it allowed prayers to female saints which was in keeping with former worship of goddesses and many classic works of sculpture representing pagan gods and goddesses were "dressed up" and became known as some of the Apostles and female saints. After the Holy Bible was translated into common languages, the most casual of bible students were able to see the truth. There were NO CAPITAL letters in the original writings, to address the statement above.

Answer 6

Fiction. Whether John 1:1 reads "The Word was God" or "The Word was a god" makes no differece because either way, this verse is NOT talking about three persons.

Answer 7

A DECEPTION.
(READ THIS CAREFULLY, I HOPE THIS WOULD HELP)
1.Is the word trinity in the Bible? No.
2.Does the Bible say that there are three persons in the Godhead? No.
3.Does the Bible speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Yes.
4.Do these titles as used in Matthew 28:19 mean that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead? No, they refer to three offices, roles, or relationship to humanity.
5.Does the Bible use the word three in reference to God? Only one verse in the entire Bible does so-I John 5:7. It speaks of the Father, the Word (instead of Son), and the Holy Ghost, and it concludes by saying, "These three are one."
6.Does the Bible use the word one in reference to God? Yes, many times. For example, see Zechariah 14:9; Malachi 2:10; Matthew 23:9; Mark 12:29, 32; John 8:41; 10:30; Romans 3:30; I Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; I Timothy 2:5; James 2:19.
7.Can the mystery of the Godhead be understood? Yes. Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:16.
8.Has the Christian only one Heavenly Father? Yes. Matthew 23:9.
9.Then why did Jesus say to Philip, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:39)? Because Jesus is the express image of God's person. Hebrews 1:3. The Greek word for personin this verse literally means "substance."
10.Does the Bible say that there are two persons in the Godhead? No.
11.Does the Bible say that all the Godhead is revealed in one person? Yes, in Jesus Christ. II Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:19; 2:9; Hebrews 1:3.
12.Is the mystery of the Deity hidden from some people? Yes. Luke 10:21-22.
13.Who is the Father? The Father is the one God, particularly as revealed in parental relationship to humanity. Deuteronomy 32:6; Malachi 2:10.
14.Where was God the Father while Jesus was on earth? The Father was in Christ. John 14:10; II Corinthians 5:19. He was also in heaven, for God is omnipresent.
15.Did the prophet Isaiah say that Jesus would be the Father? Yes. Isaiah 9:6; 63:16.
16.When God said, "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26), was He speaking to another person in the Godhead? No. Isaiah 44:24; Malachi 2:10.
17.How many of God's qualities were in Christ? All. Colossians 2:9.
18.How may we see the God who sent Jesus into the world? By seeing Jesus. John 12:44-45; 14:9.
19.Does the Bible say that Jesus is the Almighty? Yes. Revelation 1:8
20.Whom do some designate as the first person in the trinity? God the Father.
21.Whom do some designate as the last person in the trinity? The Holy Ghost. But Jesus said that He was the first and last. Revelation 1:17-18
22.How many persons did John see sitting on the throne in heaven? One. Revelation 4:2.
23.If Jesus is the first and the last, why did God say in Isaiah 44:6 that He was the first and the last? Because Jesus is the God of the Old Testament incarnate.
24.Did Jesus tell Satan that God alone should be worshipped? Yes. Matthew 4:10
25.Does the devil believe in more than one God? No. James 2:19.
26.Does the Bible say that God, who is the Word, was made flesh? Yes John 1:1, 14.
27.For what purpose was God manifested in the flesh? To save sinners. Hebrews 2:9, 14.
28.Was Jesus God manifested in the flesh? Yes. I Timothy 3:16.
29.Could Jesus have been on earth and in heaven at the same time? Yes. John 3:13.
30.Does the Bible say that there is but one Lord? Yes. Isaiah 45:18; Ephesians 4:5.
31.Does the Bible say that Christ is the Lord? Yes. Luke 2:11.
32.Does the Bible say that the Lord is God? Yes. I kings 18:39; Zechariah 14:5; Acts 2:39; Revelation 19:1.
33.How could the church belong to Jesus (Matthew 16:18) and yet be the church of God (I Corinthians 10:32)? Because Jesus is God in the flesh.
34.Will God give His glory to another? No. Isaiah 42:8.
35.Was there a God formed before Jehovah, or will there be one formed after? No. Isaiah 43:10.
36.What is one thing that God does not know? Another God. Isaiah 44:8.
37.What is one thing that God Cannot do? Lie. Titus 1:2.
38.How many Gods should we know? Only one. Hosea 13:4.
39.How many names has the Lord? One. Zechariah 14:9.
40.Is it good to think upon the name of the Lord? Yes. Malachi 3:16.
41.Does the Bible say that God alone treads upon the waves of the sea? Yes. Job 9:8
42.Why, then, was Jesus able to walk upon the Sea of Galilee (Matthew 14:25)? Because He is God the Creator. Colossians 1:16.
43.Is God the only one who can forgive sin? Yes. Isiah 43:25; Mark 2:7.
44.Why, then, could Jesus forgive sin in Mark 2:5-11? Because He is God the Savior.
45.Is Jesus the true God? Yes. I John 5:20.
46.If God and the Holy Ghost are two separate persons, which was the Father of Christ? Matthew 1:20 says that the Holy Ghost was the Father, while Romans 15:6, II Corinthians 11:31, and Ephesians 1:3 say that God was the Father. There is no contradiction when we realize that God the Father and the Holy Ghost are one and the same Spirit. Matthew 10:20; Ephesians 4:4; I Corinthians 3:16.
47.When Paul asked the Lord who He was, what was the answer? "I am Jesus." Acts 9:5.
48.When Stephen was dying, did he call God Jesus? Yes. Acts 7:59.
49.Did Thomas ever call Jesus God? Yes. John 20:28.
50.How could Jesus be the Savior, when God the Father said in Isaiah 43:11, "Beside me there is no Savior?" Because "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." II Corinthians 5:19.
51.Does the Bible say that Jesus was God with us? Yes. Matthew 1:23.
52.Did Jesus ever say, "I and my Father are one?" Yes. John 10:30.
53.Can it be proved scripturally that Jesus and the Father are one in the same sense that husband and wife are one? No. The Godhead was never compared to the relationship of a husband and wife. Jesus identified Himself with the Father in a way that husband and wife cannot be identified with each other. John 14:9-11.
54.Does the Bible say that there is only one wise God? Yes. Jude 25.
55.Does the Bible call the Holy Ghost a second or third person in the Godhead? No. The Holy Ghost is the one Spirit of God, the one God Himself at work in our lives. John 4:24; I Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19; 12:13.
56.Can Trinitarians show that three divine persons were present when Jesus was baptized by John? Absolutely not. The one, omnipresent God used three simultaneous manifestations. Only one divine person was present--Jesus Christ the Lord.
57.Then what were the other two of whom Trinitarians speak? One was a voice from heaven; the other was the Spirit of God in the form of a dove. Matthew 3:16-17.
58.What did the voice say at Jesus' baptism? "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Mark 1:11. As the Son of God, Jesus was the one God incarnate.
59.Does the Bible say that God shed His blood and that God laid down His life for us? Yes. Acts 20:28; I John 3:16. God was able to do this because He had taken upon Himself a human body.
60.The Bible says that God is coming back with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5) and also that Jesus is coming back with all his saints (I Thessalonians 3:13). Are two coming back? No. Only one is coming back--our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13.

Answer 8

The Holy Trinity points to the Eternal Father, his Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The Bible reveals the Holy Trinity in many places. John writes about the Holy Trinity in chapter one of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5aAnd from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth (Rev. 1:4, 5a, KJV).

Holy Trinity in the Bible
John greets the seven churches in Asia from the three persons of the Godhead or Holy Trinity. The greetings come from … him which is, and which was, and which is to come; this points to the Father. The … seven Spirits before the Throne point to the Holy Spirit. Then the Son names himself the Faithful Witness and the resurrected Christ. Perhaps John the apostle thinks of the words that he wrote in his Gospel.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth (John 1:1–3, 14
In these verses, John used the phrase “the Word” in exchange for Jesus Christ. The Word of God created all thrones, all powers, all rulers, and all authorities here on earth and in Heaven. Jesus created the earth and everything in it, even the smallest insects and the specks of dust in the atmosphere.

The Word holds the universe together for all time from the beginning to the end. He’s the head of his body the church; he’s the firstborn from the dead. Jesus Christ, as part of the Holy Trinity, controls all things on earth. (Col. 1:15–20).

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters (Gen. 1:1, 2

Moses writes about the creation when he starts the Bible with, “In the beginning.” John starts his Gospel about Jesus Christ with, “In the beginning.” In Genesis 1, we see the Almighty God and the Holy Spirit before the creation of the universe. In John 1, we see Jesus before the creation of the universe.
The Bible does not use the term Holy Trinity, but the Bible contains many references to the Triune God (2 Cor. 13:14). God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit have always been, and they always will be. With the Lord there’s no beginning and no end. The Lord is unchanging: the same throughout eternity (Matt. 28:19).



Holy Trinity reveals one God
The three persons of the Holy Trinity are distinct and separate: yet, they are one (Eph. 4:4–6). This gives us the mystery of the Godhead—we wonder how this can be? (1 Pet. 1:2). As we look at the traditional teachings of the Christian Church and study the Bible, we should grow in our understanding and accept the Holy Trinity by faith (Luke 3:21, 22).

Holy Trinity—One God
The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit,
three separate Persons, and yet One.
Divine mystery beyond perception.
We look at One—We look at All.
We pray to One—We pray to All.
We love One—We love All.
One love’s us—All love us.
Father–Son–Holy Spirit—One God.

Answer 9

The concept of the Trinity was added to Christianity by the Roman Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea. It originates from pagan Platonism, not the Bible. None of the Christian bishops who were at the council advocated Jesus being equal to God in the Trinity in the way that Constantine did.

The reason the bishops went along with Constantine is that he granted tax exemptions to the bishops and Christian communities who agreed with him. Bishops who disagreed were deposed and replaced.

If the concept of the Trinity was really based on the Bible, it wouldn't have taken 300 years and the actions of a pagan emperor to introduce it to Christianity.

...

Clearly people don't like this answer because it disagrees with what they are told by their local preachers. If you want to know the truth, do some research on the evolution of Christian doctrine and you'll see that I'm right.

Before the Council of Nicea, the dominant belief among Christian bishops was the Homoean position that Jesus was 'like' God, not that Jesus was God. Tax exemptions and seizing property have proved to be a very effective means of changing Christian doctrine throughout the Church's history.

Answer 10

I could present many compelling illustrations, as I have done in the past,however these text are collectively just one of many evidences, in support of the concept of the truine God.

God The Father raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 10:9), Jesus raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21; John 10:17-18), and The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11).