For those that know "form is emptiness"?

Question

Do you also know that *emptiness is form*?
Care to say a word or two or seven? Thanks! ~*~

Well I am in an agreeable place today. Great to have you back Daz Maz! ~*~

Answer 1

I don't know the official definition of the Buddhist term "emptiness" but it sounds like you are talking about the 2 concepts of form and formlessness. Are you asking if that those of us who know that form is formlessness also know that formlessness is form?

Yes indeed.

If the ocean is formlessness and the wave is form, then it is true that the wave is ocean and also true that ocean is wave. There is a figure/ground relationship between ocean and wave and a similar figure/ground relationship between formlessness and form.

Formless is form in another important way. Both form and formlessness are mental concepts. True formlessness cannot be named for this reason. All mental concepts are forms.

As Lao Tzu says in my favorite translation of the Dao De Ching:
Existence is beyond the power of words to define:
Terms may be used but none of them are absolute.
In the beginning of heaven and earth, there were no words,
Words came out of the womb of matter;
And whether a man dispassionately sees to the core of life,
Or passionately sees the surface,
The core and the surface are essentially the same,
Words making them seem different only to express appearance, If name be needed, Wonder names them both.
From Wonder into Wonder, Existence opens.
Translation of stansa #1 by Witter Bynner.

Answer 2

Are they the most efficiant or fastest way? Definetly not, that is not their intent. Most kata's from traditonal styles were designed to take time to learn, because most oriental people do not have the American attitude of "I want it all now", especially the new generation of Americans. Are they every bit as effective as other methods in the long run? Definetly yes, as long as they are trained correctly, and include actually applying and learning the moves with a resisting opponent. I do not think you will find anyone who beleives that kata can teach you self defense would tell you different. Unfortunatly, in the rush to make money, many people have opened schools, or even created their own styles, without actually knowing what they are doing. Another by product of the AMerican mentality, this to make lot's of money, even if they are not qualified. I know you do not believe in kata, and if that works for you it is fine, however kata under a good instructor, trained correctly, works well for many of us. The kata and teh self defense within eventually becomes a part of you, it just takes time. I do know that when I am 50-60 and can no longer spar as long or as hard, or keep up with younger people, I will still have my kata to work on, and learn from, and every time I practice one I will be working self defense. ........Can you say the same?

Answer 3

Knowing how futile it would be and how infantile I would sound to try and explain this because of my mistaken views, I would ask you to read "The Essence of the Heart Sutra," by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. This seemingly simple statement regarding form and emptiness being merely converse is quite readily misunderstood. Taken in the context of the hinayana interpretation of the four noble truths it would mean one thing that would be foundational to the mahayana interpretation of the four noble truths and the two truths. Further, this would necessitate at least a base understanding of the hinayana and mahayana pathway minds, something that might be overlooked by the casual observer.

Answer 4

Hi CD, like most things this can be approached on various levels, and I apologise if I am off the mark you were looking for, but I am a bit rusty after a few weeks off the net.

In the physical material's greatest illusion is it's apparent 'solidness'. Quantum mechanics is discovering that what appeared to be, with the advent of the electron microscope, that stuff is mostly composed of great big gaps between really tiny amounts of specks of even tinier stuff, so tiny,in fact, that they don't really warrant the description 'stuff' at all !

Thus what appears to us as 'form' is, when viewed from a much closer perspective, actually largely emptiness.

My interpretation of the inverse, is that in apparent 'emptiness' is vested the potentiality of everything that ever was/is/will be, all 'waiting in the wings' to make it's grand entrance, like some cosmic Lady Bracknell ( Importance of being Ernest - Oscar Wilde ). Vis, everything is already in existence as 'Potentiality', it just requires the Cosmic Observer to imagine it into beingness.

I think ...... ;-)))

Edit

I do agree with 'Squirt', but I do not necessarily agree with 'Invisible Flags', but there again, being a navigator, I rarely do, they usually mean pirates are about. :-)))

Answer 5

Anything told in words has a form .Without emptiness how there will be space for forms?Emptiness is filled with forms and forms fill the emptiness . If we want to see emptiness in the forms it is there waiting with empty hands!

Answer 6

Beyond a point things have no form. That cant be even called emptiness. Before that everything has to have a form. Nothing can exist without a form.

Answer 7

Objects, and therefore experience, are the conceptual formations of thought as the act of perception. Thought arises and falls, as do all perceptions. In the absence of this 'movement' of Consciousness that is thought, there is emptiness. This emptiness is the ground of Being within which perception arises and falls.

The forms that arise within emptiness are not other than emptiness. Emptiness, itself, is devoid of thingness. Thingness arises within emptiness. Emptiness is both empty and full.

Answer 8

Oh Sariputra . . .
Well, I could quote the Sutra but that's knowing about it, not knowing it.
I agree with DazMaz that quantum mechanics mirrors the 'deepest wisdom of the mind'.
I can only say that I have seen potential pouring into manifestation while still existing in both states. The egg, the breaking out and the chicken - all existing in this NOW.
But whatever words I might use - they still wouldn't be IT, now would they?

I'm glad you're in a pleasant place today.

Jon

Answer 9

I think philmeta got it.

To say that something is empty is not the same as nihilistic thought. Some people land on each extreme: one, that form is everything, the other, that form is nothing at all. I believe we might say that it is part of the middle path to understand the truth and limitations of each view.

Answer 10

Outer-space is Form and Emptiness.