Is Vishnu a smaller version of Krishna ?

Question

sri.Aum ji:-(I dont believe Krishna to be vishnu avtar as popular belief is... vishnu is a smaller manifestation of Krishna, so is brahmaa and Rudra)

I beg to differ from you sri.Aum ji.you seem to be a devout Krishna Bhaktha.Even in Srimath Bhaagavatham of sri Veda Vyasa Krishna is described as a "Sampoorna Avathaaram" of Lord sri.Vishnu."Avatharam" in Sanskrit means "descending down"--like "Avaroganam"-"Avakunditham" etc -I hope you have read Sanskrit.---sri.Krishna is only the 8 th Avathaaram of Lord sri.Vishnu--like sri.Rama ,the 7 th Avathaaram.--sri.Rudra is mentioned in Vedam(the most Suprior Authority of Hindu religion)---"Om Namo Bhagavathay Rudraaya"--sri.Krishna studied the Vedham with sri.Kuchela under his Guru
sri.Saanthheepa Muny--but not mentioned in Vedas.Sri.Rudra is the Veda Purusha and sri.krishna is not a Veda Purusha.Sri.Bhagavad geetha and srimath Bhaagavatham are only "Aaptha Vaakyam (of sri.Vyaasa) but VEDHAM-the is THE SUPREME AUTHORITY..

ross:- you seem to be of a different religion-so you are getting the essence of this message.there is no Father,son and all that in Hindu religion.

ross:-Please read you are NOT getting the essence----

happy_n_freone:- I am awaiting your valuble comments.

Your very question "what is Vedham"? and youuur long "Essay" clearly shows -you know only and qoute (Late) Poojya sri .PrabhuPaadha's personal viwes.Even sri.Madhwacharya (whose traditions the "Kirishna Concience" people said to follow) gave Prime Importance only to Vedham -secondly Brahma Sutram and he has written a Gloss( "Dwaitham"--Dhatha-Daasa concept)-then ofcourse sri.Bhagavad Geetha and srimath Bhagavatham. Veda Vyaasa, the author of srimath Bhaagavatham ( litreature authored by a Human being) has created a rule which is faifully follwed --that any Litrature is not in Compatibility with Vedham is to be rejected.It is how Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism were not considered part of Vaiddeki Madham(Religion)-so called Hindu religion.Sri.Prabhu Paadha's writings,which you have taken in-toto in your long Essay is not in Compatibility with VEDHAM

happy_n_freeone---I have breifly try to answer your message.Vedham was Revealed by GOD Parameswara to a select group of Munis.In Bhagavad geetha sri.Krishna talks about (Acahrya Sankara also maintains ) -VEDHA TRAYEE=3 Vedhams--that is Rk,Yajus,Saaman--I have done 7 years Adhyayanam (14 th year to 21 year of my age) of Krishna Yajur vedham -Taittriya Aaranyakam under an eminent Guru Sri.Ramanatha Ganapaati.I can translate the entire sri.Bhagavad Geetha word by word-but I accept only sri Achaya Sankara's Gloss- I do not accept even one word of sri Prabhu paadhaaji's interpretation

Sweeteasybreeze:- "Brahmaji says, Govindam adi purusham tam aham bhajami."
This means that Krishna is God, the source of Brahma, Vishnu and Siva.
______________________________-
Who told you that what you have translated is the meaning--Please study Sanskrit--In the given context--Go=(means)Earth---Vindam=One who lifted.---Please read Pooyaniya sri.Vyasa's srimath Bhaagavatham--When Hiranyaaksha dipped the entire earth under the ocean Sr.Vishnu took the form of sri.Bhu-Varaahamurthy, (sri.Vishnu's 3 rd Avathaaram)and "Lifted"(Vindam) the Earth(Go)-so sri.Vishnu's name is GOVINDAM--Aadhi purusham =the earrliest God's form(according to Vaishnavas-we Smaarthas do not agree) Aham =I--Bhajaami=worships --Tam=you.There is no mentionof sri.Siva(the Supreme lord even to sri Krishna) or sri.Krishna

ssrvj;-None of the answers deserve the rating of Best Answer.Most of the answers are of a "Particular Cults' " view.

Vedham was "Revealed"(Dharsanam) by the Supreme Lord sri Siva-Poojya Vyaasaa only gathered the scatterd Vedham from all over Bharatha grouped them in 3 sub headings(Sri.Krishna also says in sri.Bhagavad Geetha-Vedha Trayee) Rk,Yajus,Saaman.Sri.Vyasaaji did NOT write Vedam--disinformation- Veda can NOT be written-it is why it is called SRUTHI-sri Vyaasa dictated Srimath Bhagavatham and Lord Ganesha WROTE it with his Vakra Thuntam-So it can NOT be SRUTHI (Vedham)-It is only SMIRITHI.Sri. Prabhu Paadha has twisted all the facts.I was not surprised that you would be "Harsh" at me-because your Logic fails.It iwas whwt happened when sri Mandan Mishra(an Authority onMeemaamsa') argued with sri Acharya Sankara. Because his "Fuming harshness(Anger) as his Logic failed the garland sri.Bharathi gave to her husband sri.Misra became black and the garland given to sri Acharya Sankara was remaining very fresh. so "Harsh" is not a substitute for failed Logic.My apologies to you if I were Harsh.

Do you accept Srila Vyasadeva or not?
I do accept sri.la.Vyaasa Deva
Do you accept Srimad Bhagavatam??
I do accept srimad Bhagavadam
Do you accept Srimad Bhagavad Gita? -I do accept-Every word of each verse of sri.Bhagavat Geetha ,from "Dharma kshetre,Kuru kshetre,samavedha Yutsavai maamakaa paandavaaschaiva kim Akurvadha sanjaya" Ican translate into English---but NONE of them is VEDHAM-They are all Aaptha vaakyams. i wil continue tomorrow

chinta koro na:-when you say Tam=me ,then what is Aham? you should be awarded a Ph.D. in sanskrit by Oxford Univrsity.I do not want to go further

>.narkesu:- first time,I hear a sensible argument .People ask what is Vedam? Another person says Tam=I ---how he will traslate "Aham"?--Ignorance is Bliss!!

sri.Madva Aacharya is an intellectual giant & an Authority on Vedham and Vedhaantha &accepted. clearly Vedham is Supreme Authority.srimath Bhaagavadam and sri.Bhagavad Geetha are NOT included in Vedham-You know that very well.They are only Aaptha vaakyams.Verses(Slokam)- one can quote 1000s -in praise of Lord Siva,Lord Vishnu,Tri Devis.In praise of the Supreme Lord -Siva- 100 verses from sri.Sivaanandha Lahari-starting with the verse "Kalaabyaam, Sudaalangratha Kalaabyaam'--or for the supramacy of Pancaakshari "OM Namaha Sivaaya"--the verse "Nagendra Haaraya--or Dwaadasa Jyothir Lingas--"Souraashtray Somanaatham cha---or from Soundarya Lahari-When sri.Vishnu ,sri.Brahma - all putting their Heads on sri Amba's feet-sri.Siva enters,and sri.Amba stands in respect. sri Appaya Dikshit;can be quoted--I start a seperate discussion

Answer 1

this seems like some of the classic debates among the dvaita and advaita vadis.

ssrvj who is asking this question is following the line of thought put forth by the followers of Shankaracarya.
and happy, and sweeteasybreeze, seem to be putting forward the conceptions brought down from the line (parampara) of Madhvacarya, In the parampara started by Krsna Himself.

see Aradhana, this is why we need to understand the intrinsic philosophies of the acaryas, and not try to just merge everything together like a kichri.

Actually there is complete harmony in the teachings of the vaisnavas. First of all, we have great respect for Sankaracarya, and of course we love Lord Siva. But things must be understood in the proper perspective. So therefore the vaisnavas do not accept the teachings of Sankaracarya which is advaitavad. Now I've already discussed the differences of dvaitavad and advaitavad respectively in my previous questions/answers, so im not going to get into the details of them here. but i think we should know who's in which parampara. Now I understand that the line of Sankaracarya exists up to this present day, and I think that the present acarya goes by the name Sankaracarya.
Now let's take a closer look at the vaisnava sampradaya.
Because ssrvj has enough courage to belittle the teachings of Svami Mahraj Prabhupada, so by doing so, he automatically disrespects everyone in the vaisnava parampara. Let's mention some names and see who is in this Parampara.

para-vyomesvarasyasic chisyo brahma jagat-patih
tasya sisyo narado ‘bhud vyasas tasyapa sisyatam

Brahma, the master of the universe, is the disciple of Paramesvara Sri Narayana, and Naradaji became the disciple of Brahma. Vyasadeva became the disciple of
Naradaji.

suko vyasasya sisyatvam prapto jnanavarodhanat
vyasal labdho krsna-dikso madhvacaryo mahayasah

Sri Sukadevaji became the disciple of Sri Vyasadeva in order to check the spread of impersonal jnana. The celebrated Madhvacarya also received krsna-diksa from Sri Vyasadeva, Narahari became the twice-born sisya of Madhvacarya.

tasya sisyo naraharis tac-chisyo madhavo dvijah
aksobhyas tasya sisyo ‘bhut tac-chisyo jayatirthakah

Madhva-dvija became the disciple of Narahari. Aksobhya was Madhva-dvija’s disciple and accepted Jayatirtha as his disciple.

tasya sisyo jnanasindhus tasya sisyo mahanidhih
vidyanidhis tasya sisyo rajendras tasya sevakah

Jnanasindhu became the disciple of Jayatirtha, Mahanidhi became Jnanasindhu’s disciple and accepted Vidyanidhi as his disciple, and Rajendra became the disciple of Vidyanidhi.

jayadharmo munis tasya sisyo yad-gana-madhyatah
srimad-visnupuri yas tu bhakti-ratnavali krtih

Jayadharma Muni became the disciple of Rajendra, and one of his followers named Sri Visnu Puri, who composed Bhakti-ratnavali, was a prominent acarya.

jayadharmasya sisyo ‘bhud brahmanyah purusottamah
vyasa-tirthas tasya sisyo yas cakre visnu-samhitam

Jayadharma’s disciple was Brahmanya Purusottama, who in turn accepted Vyasa-tirtha, the author of Visnu-samhita, as his disciple.

srimal-laksmipatis tasya sisyo bhakti-rasasrayah
tasya sisyo madhavendro yad-dharmo ‘yam pravartitah

Sri Laksmipati became the disciple of Vyasa-tirtha, and Madhavendra Puri, who was the epitome of bhakti-rasa, and who propagated bhakti-dharma, was the disciple of Laksmipati.
Madhavendra Puris' prominent disciple was Sri Isvara Puri, who initiated the Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Srila svami Maharaj is the perfect disciple in the line of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. These are the prominent acaryas in this line:
Caitainya mahaprabhu, Sri Sanatan Gosvami, Sri Rupa Gosvami, sri Jiva gosvami, Sri Lokanatha Gosvami, Sri Narottam das Thakur, Sri Syamananda das Thakur, Sri Rasikananda Prabhu, Sri Ganga Narayan Cakrabarti, Sri Nayanananda, Sri Krsna Carana Cakrabarti, Sri Radha Damodara Das, Sri Radharaman Cakrabarti, Sri Visvanatha Cakrabarti Thakur, Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana Prabhu, Sri Uddhara, Sri Jahnava Thakurani, Sri Madhusudana, Sri Jagannatha das babaji, Sri Vipina bihari Gosvami, Sri Bhagavata Das, Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Sri Gaurakisora Das babaji Maharaj, Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, Sri Bhaktivedanta Svami Mahraj, (also known as Srila Prabhupad.) and the guru parampara is going on to this present day.

This is the line of Madhvacarya, known as the brahma madhva gaudiya sampradaya. But there are other lines descending from Madhvacarya as well. The other three sampradays are as follows, Ramanujacarya sampradaya, Nimbarka sampradaya, Vishnusvami sampradaya.
I'll just mention a few from Ramanuja sampradaya that come to mind, not neccessarily in order.
Brahmananda, Tulasidas, (who wrote Ram carita manas) Kabir,(some believe that Guru Nanak was a disciple of Kabir.) Surdas, Rai das, Meerabai, to name a few.

Are you going to have us all believe that all the above mentioned saints/Acaryas are not following the Vedas?

But actually, Lord Siva says Himself that the philosophy which will be propounded by Him in His incarnation as Sripad Sankaracarya, will NOT be the conclussion of the Vedas.
"mayavadam asac-chastram
pracchannam bauddham ucyate,
mayaiva vihitam devi,
kalau brahman-murtina
-Padma purana, uttara khanda (46.6)
(in answer to a question by Umadevi (Parvati) Mahadev explains), "O Devi! Mayavada is an impure sastra. Although actually covered Buddhism, it has gained entry into the religion of the Aryans, disguised as Vedik conclusions. In Kaliyug, I shall appear in the guise of a brahmana and preach this Mayavada philosophy."

Without surrendering to the Supreme Lord and without cultivating pure devotion, one can never understand the conclusions of the Vedas. This is confirmed in many verses throughout scripture

bhaktya mam abhijanati
yavan yas casmi tattvatah
tato mam tattvato jnatva
visate tad-anantaram

SYNONYMS

bhaktya--by pure devotional service; mam--Me; abhijanati--one can know; yavan--as much as; yah ca asmi--as I am; tattvatah--in truth; tatah--thereafter; mam--Me; tattvatah--by truth; jnatva--knowing; visate--enters; tat-anantaram--thereafter.
TRANSLATION

One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full
consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.

nayam atma pravacanena
labhyo na medhaya na bahuna srutena
yam evaisa vrnute tena labhyas
tasyaisa atma vivrnute tanum svam

The Supreme Self can never be known by any amount of argument, reasoning, intelligence, or by much hearing. To those whom He chooses, however, He may show His personal form. (Katha Upanisad 1.2.23)

Answer 2

Brahmaji says, Govindam adi purusham tam aham bhajami.
This means that Krishna is God, the source of Brahma, Vishnu and Siva.
When Krishna expanded into all the cows and cowherd boys, Lord Brahma came to see this wonderful feat.

Then Krishna revealed to Brahmaji that each expansion
was a four armed Vishnu form. Brahmaji was filled with ecstasy and thrilled when he witnessed the thousands of Vishnu forms enter into Sri Krishnas body.

If it werent for Srila Vyasdev, no one would know about Vedas. Please dont be ungrateful to the Saints and authorities who guide us to proper understanding.

* oh I see that you misunderstood my partial quote of a sloka, and took it out of context. I thought that you being so intelligent, would have recognized it, from just the partial quote. Here is the full verse,

*
Venum kvanantam aravinda-dalayataksam

barhavatam samasitambuda-sundarangam

kandarpa-koti-kamaniya vishesha-shobham

govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajami

This is just one of many verses, that give the explanation of who the Supreme personality of Godhead is.

These verses describe the original lord, with the guna and lila of Krishna....
They mention His flute, (venum) His peacock feather, His three bending pose, dark form, (shyamam tribhanga lalitam), and His flocks of kama dhenu cows.

Brahmaji also mentions that He is inaccessible by all the Vedas and only known through bhakti. (vedesu DURLABHAM, Adurlabham atma bhaktau)

Krishna Himself confirms this in Bhagavad Gita.
This explains why you can not understand Him with your imperfect senses, and tiny speculative brain.
To think that you know more than a sudha bhakta, or pure devotee of Krishna, is mere arrogance. You are a baddha jiva, and bound by illusion, just as I am.

The difference between me and you, is that I have faith in Krishnas devotees and you have faith in nothing.

Answer 3

what a long debate...

sorry to say but...
you are ridiculous for your *translation* of govindam.
the whole translation should say (this is in grammar order of english)

tam=I
bhajami worship
govindam=another *well known* name of Krsna
adi purusham= the original Lord.

Even if this is a true side meaning, How can it be the context of this prayer by Lord Brahmaji? He is describing Krsna who plays a flute, with three fold bending figure, with peacock feather on His head, served by thousands of Lakshmis (another indication of superiority of Krsna)

do you know what contexts means? get a dictionary.

I dont know about your story or your lost faith...... but of course what happy says about accepting your words must be taken into account. FAITH IS preliminary. Why dont you have faith?? Maybe because you twist everything up. in the end you even try to say that happy has no logic, from what i have seen, you do not refute any of the slokas or points that happy or sweeteasy makes. Tell me about twisted!!

arguing with you might be useless,( if its only going to cause you to say offensive things to true saints) But I am not a softy like happy, and dont really care if you increase your aparadha and go to Yamarajas abode. If you want to try and argue Srila Svami Maharaj Prabhupads Sanatan dharma I will certainly defeat you. First of all, have you taken heed to the slokas that are quoted by happy? refute that, then we can talk.

Answer 4

The trinity(Brahma, Vishnu and Siva) are the three aspects of the same God, While creating, He is Brahma, while sustaining, He is Vishnu and in annihilation He is Siva. These are the various names ascribed to indicate the separate functions.For eg., I am a father to my son, Iam the husband for my wife, Iam the son to my mother etc. But my innate identity never suffers any change. Hence all these are God. He is the in dweller and at the same time transcendent principle. Hence Krishna being supreme are all our own imaginations. the argument will be endless. nagarajan.

Answer 5

no Aum and happy said that out of love for Krishna.So its acceptable to me because it has been said in love.
Krishna is not a "larger" manifestation of God ie Vishnu(here I refer to him as Narayana n not just Vishnu who is a manifestation of that Narayana). Krishna according to the scriptures is the complete ie purna avtaara of Narayana-the supreme being and lord of entire creation. There is no difference at allllll between Krishna and Narayana.Narayana came as Krishna with all his vaibhava and qualities

I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH ROSS AND THAT IS OUT OF LOVE BUT HAPPY TALKS ABOUT SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE TOO SO SHE MUST BE CORRECT.

Answer 6

I must say Aradhana, that I did answer tht question out of love. However there is much evidence that i look to, much knowledge that i have heard, and books that i have read... for one thing, Sri Krsna has 64 transcendental qualities, and Sri Narayan, has 60.

ssrvj
What is this Vedam which you say is the supreme authority? How do you authenticate that statement? I cannot put an argument forth if you do not accept the authenticity of Srimad Bhagavatam, which I have understood to be the essence and cream of puranas and vedas, and also if you do not accept Srimad Bhagavad Gita.

What about Sri Sivaji's own words? He says in many places about the superiority of Vishnu and Krsna. He says,
'aradhananam sarvesam, visnur aradhanam param.-

you have mentioned that Krsna is the 8th avatara of Vishnu, but this is only according to the material time frame. Krsna descends to each material universe once in everyday of Sri Brahmaji. one day of Bramha is 4billion 300 hundred 30 million years. Krsna is eternally existent, in His own abode, in chit jagat. this is just jada jagat.

Actually, Vishnu Narayan and Krsna are non different. Their names are only indicative of Their pastimes and particular rasa. It is very similar to a person with a job, lets say Jack Smith. When Jack Smith is at work, he is a judge, he gets called your honor only. When he is at the store, the register person calls him Mr. Smith. When he is among friends he is called jack, or jack-o in jest. When he is with his wife, he is called jackdear, honey, darling etc.
In other forms of God, They are the same God, but they have a different role that they are playing. Vishnu is maintainer, this is like a more formal and less intimate, therefore less imbued with all the qualities of rasa than Krsna. They are the same in tattva, but different according to rasa vicara.

So we know that God is akhila rasamrita sindhu- taster of oceans of nectar moods and feelings. In Krsna's eternal leela in Braj, Krsna tastes all 5 rasas of santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. And His topmost leela is Rasa Leela with the Gopis in Vraj. All pray to come to this rasa leela. Lakshmi prays to be able to join it, Sivaji wanted it so much that He took special form as Gopiswar mahadev.

So which form is more complete? Which is purna brahma? Are we to ignore the verses in the Srimad Bhagavad Gita such as, "mat tam parataram nanyat"- there is no truth superior to me. and - and "aham hi sarava yagyanam bhokta ca prabhur eva ca"- I am the enjoyer and the master of everything. "shyamach chamalam prapadye" ..... "aham sarvasya prabhavo"


-More

ssrvj, First you say you do not accept Srimad Bhagavatam as supreme authority, then you say author of Bhagavatam Sri Vyasadev said he made rules to only follow veda- this should mean that Srimad Bhagavatam is most in line with Vedam.

My understanding is that there existed the four vedas, sons of Lord Brahma, and that Sri Vedaa Vyasadev, wrote all the vedas so that the knowledge would not be lost and Sri VedaVyasdev was a literary incarnation of God. After completing all the vedas he remained unsatisfied, until his Guru Sri Naradji, told him to write the Srimad Bhagavatam. which is commentary and essence of all vedas.

Everything you say, is your opinion. Am I to accept your views over Srila Prabhupada's or my Gurudev or Sri Baladev Vidyabhusana, Srila Visvanatha Cakrabarti Thakur, the entire gaudiya line going back to Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and going back to Vedavyas, and up to Sri Naradji?

You offer me no proof that their view is not in accordance with veda. (which I assure it is in line with Vedam)
There can be no argument between us, as we have no basis from which to debate.. I do not want to continue this useless debate, where you are putting down a suddha bhakta Srila Prabhupad, and telling me he is away from sastra.

Who are you?

I will be harsh to you now.. All of your bookish knowledge is equal to zero. You do not even have faith to your God Sivaji as you have said yourself previously... I do not have regard for your words,..

Don't you know that in order to understand the inner meaning of the vedam, you do not need a large brain to memorize all sastra, in reality the most important thing is you need to have faith? This is preliminary. without faith, you will be lost in the flowery words of the vedam.

edit 3
Gita:
sri-bhagavan uvaca
imam vivasvate yogam
proktavan aham avyayam
vivasvan manave praha
manur iksvakave 'bravit
The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvan, and Vivasvan instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu in turn instructed it to Iksvaku.
evam parampara-praptam
imam rajarsayo viduh
sa kaleneha mahata
yogo nastah parantapa
This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost.

Instead of saying that I cannot defeat your logic, why don't you defeat all my statements?
Vyasadev DID write the vedam, how else could you and I read it? It is called Shruti because it was always passed down from memory in previous ages. This is why here in Gita, Krsna says this knowledge was lost.

In the age of kali, peoples intelligence is limited, as their memory, for this reason, Vyasadev wrote ALL vedas for the benefit of all people in Kaliyug. Are you saying that you have never read Vedam? that it is only in your memory?
I keep on addressing your points, but you address none of my points. You only resort to belittling me. This is cowardice in debate.


So you like to translate sanskrit? Translate this:

tvam aradhya tatha sambho grahisyami varam sada
dvaparadhu yuge bhutva kalaya manusadisu
svagamaih kalpitaistvanca janam madvinukhan krru
manca gopaya yena syat sristiresontarontara-

Here is the meaning:
'Vishnu said "oh Sambhu althougha I am Bhagavan (God) still I have worshipped different devatas and devis to bewilder the asuras (demons) in the same way I shall worship you as well and recieve benedictions. In Kali yuga you should incarnate amongst human beings through your partial expansion. (SRI Sankaracarya) You should preach from sastra like agama, (one of the scriptures) and fabricate a philosophy that will distract the general mass of people away from Me and keep Me covered. and in this way more and more people will deviate away from Me, and My pastimes will become all the more valuable."- Padma purana uttar khanda 42.109-110
4.2.29-30 Narad pancaratra


I want to know one thing. Do you accept Srila Vyasadeva or not? Do you accept Srimad Bhagavatam?? Do you accept Srimad Bhagavad Gita? Please answer very clearly, dont beat around the bush.