Do Dogs Respond to Alpha Dominance Theories?

Question

If I see one more person on this section start talking about alpha rolls, and being an alpha to your dog I am going to scream!

I would challenge anyone who thinks these theories are valid to please give me ONE qualified behaviorist, or one trainer who is recognized in dog behavior who can explain WHY these theories are valid.

When I was about to graduate from college I was given the opportunity to study with L. David Mech. He is one of the people who came up with these theories. They were never intended to be applied to dogs.

Please read:

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm
http://behaviorcorner.com/blog/category/dog-behavior/dominance/

I have taught obedience for 30+ years. I've probably had 800+ students.

Alpha rolls, grabbing a dog by the scruff, etc. cause more harm than good.

The gauntlet is down. JUST ONE SOURCE!

Rand Al Thor

Didn't read the articles did you?

Caesar Millan? The man has NO qualifications. He is being sued for abusing animals. There are others who have used his techniques over the years. They are NOT new.

May have worked for you. I've had numerous students who have created Frankenstein dogs because of his techniques.

I have yet to see a dog that became an issue using proper training techniques.

Try reading the articles!

Loki_wolfchild

Okay, I get a new puppy who has decided he doesn't like me taking away a toy, or something else and is going to bite me. Am I going to accept that behavior? Absolutely not. I may grab the dog by the collar and tell him no. Are there other things that I do that could be viewed as alpha behavior? Viewed in very narrow terms, yes.

What I'm saying is that this terminology and the ideas that are the basis for it are being misapplied.

greekman

Great point!

Submissive dogs roll on their backs to show submission to dominant dogs. It isn't the dominant dog rolling the submissive dog onto it's back.

Folks.

NEGATIVE reinforcement is a training technique! Just as positive reinforcement is a training technique.

As I said. Puppy exhibits inappropriate biting behavior and you want to grab it by the scruff and tell it no. That's negative reinforcement. That's a training technique.

Alpha Rolls. So what are you teaching the dog? Your dominance. There's no such thing! You're not TEACHING the dog anything.

Answer 1

You know, YA has been inundated by all sorts of "experts" lately. There have been many before, to be sure, but, it is getting really bad lately. I was sent a violation notice several months a go when I went off on someone who adviced a 100 pound woman to Alpha roll her 200 Great Dane.
I, long a go, gave up on trying to impart any wisdom or advice on most people here. Instead I come on to see how far we have sunk as the supposedly top of the food chain species and laugh when I see the questions and answers being posted here by the bleeding hearts and wannabe trainers and "behaviorists".
Has anyone here even seen an alpha dog's approach to a lesser member of the pack when that member screws up?
The alpha will place his head or paw on that member's shoulder area and that member will WILLINGLY roll on his back and expose his throat. The key word here is willingly. Fight over. Alpha dogs are not interested in fighting or love, they are very interested, however, in respect and they will go to great lengths to get it. What people do not understand is that all that love they give to their dogs and all that hugging and kissing will be misinterpeted for a weakness by a really strong dog and there will be problems. Pack behavior always rules in a dog's mind and that is where everything else stems from. Trying to teach people here that concept will not work judge, believe me.
Dogs will not follow a lovable leader, they will follow a leader they can respect and count on.
Same thing with most people.

Answer 2

People can misuse just about any theory you want to name. There are a number of ways to get a dog to do what you want it to, or to prevent it from doing something you don't want it to. I think you have to use various methods in various situations. Let's keep in mind that Cesar Millan is dealing with dogs with pretty severe behaviour problems, whose owners have been unable to do the most basic things with their dogs, and whose dogs are doing outrageous things. These people simply have no idea what makes a dog do what it does, and no idea how to get a dog to want to do what you want. I've had dogs for a long time and have had only one with anything approaching such problems, which dog came to me as an adult with those problems. I eventually sorted her out, and with what I know now could do the same thing much faster. This article talks about force and coercion, which doesn't sound much like what I do with my dogs. I do establish that I'm the boss around here, but I have never used any physical force to do it. Pardon me, I forgot. I did once, about 20 years ago, with the above-mentioned difficult dog. It worked, too. She became a much different dog after that and for the 10 years more that she lived I never needed to do such a thing again. This article implies that dominant behaviour is a case of physically forcing a dog to submit, when it's much more subtle than that. Edit: I Call Lizard makes some very good points. I agree completely.

Answer 3

OK fine!!!

you asked for one so I will give you only one 9 times out of 10 when a dog roils over and lifts his soft underside to you say if you seem mad it is a sign of submission my dog does it and I've seen many others. I've seen my dog do it for other bigger dogs out on walks and other dogs roil over for mine it is all about dominance remember a long long long time ago there were only wolves then breeding and domestication made into dogs. not all dogs do this that is why you may disagree with me but the closer breeds do I've seen it with my own eyes if you don't like it then give me a bad rating even though I'm right. go on do it! liberals


ooooo never mind I see someone took my idea good. lol another is the transfer of food if the alpha gives food to another dog or in this case humans like if one gets a bird and brings it back to you like a cat then that is ether passing the leadership or another way of submitting.

now this and training is two diffrent things if you teach a dog to do somthing it knows "if I do it I am pleacing the alpha" or somthing like that. now i have seen people argue about dog's brain power and sprerits and what not, but there many aspects to take into account first.. look at guid dogs they are trained from puppyhood and larn how to do things that most other dogs can't or just don't know. the sit stay and follow thing works with most dogs but there are others. I think it depends on the dog really.

Answer 4

Being the alpha roll for my dogs works for them. And I don't have to grab them by the scruff to make them see that I am Alpha either. Just simple obiendence training can show your dog that you are alpha. Dog pack, just like wolf packs, go by structrue. They both need Alpha rolls to run the pack. If, say 2 males, in a pack get into a dispute, you will notice the more dominant one will roll the other onto its' back. That is his way of showing his dominance. Just watch a pack, there are lots of way they show dominace without any aggression. Just making your dog sit before giving them their food is a way to show that you are the dominant one. Our dogs, in how they run their pack is NO different from a wolf pack. The only difference is that dogs are domesticated. But they still need the structure of a pack and a good strong pack leader.

_________________________________
Loki_Wolfchild if you don't mind could you please contact me privately? Your answer and technique are great and I have a person question for you about being alpha. That is if you don't mind! ;o) My email is on my home page to yahoo answers.

Answer 5

Dogs don't really understand the difference between good behavior and bad behavior. Dogs just act. Then they react to the the responses they get from other members in their pack. When the pack makes it clear that a particular behavior is undesirable, the dog learns not to do it any more. The pack leaders dictate which behaviors are acceptable and unacceptable.
The humans in my home are definitely the pack leaders over the dogs.

Answer 6

I'm with you. I used to believe in the Alpha Roll, the result was a dog that was afraid of being disciplined or of doing anything wrong and would snarl and snap (never bite) if he thought I was angry with him.

This was a dog that otherwise had an excellent and gentle temperament. He loved everyone and was confident in all situations, and amazingly tolerant of children and handling. He was a show dog and had earned his CDX and TT. But his fear of "attack" drove him to defend himself from me. The things I did to that poor dog in the name of training make me cringe now. But at the time I thought I was doing the right thing.

Now I have a similar situation with a dog I have. I did not train him, but his previous owners did and he came to me with the same fear of being "attacked" for reasons he could not comprehend. Gentle but firm handling has taught him that I will not hurt him (even though I insist on getting my way) and he has become a confident, friendly dog that can be handled with ease. I can now do his nails, pick him up, and remove things from his mouth with no difficulty, whereas when I first got him these were a real problem because of his previous associations (he once snapped at my face when I attempted to boost him into the car, and taking something from his mouth started him growling and biting because he thought he was going to be punished).

I am the pack leader to 11 dogs, and I insist on order. They all know I AM the BOSS.

PS: Cesar Milan is an idiot.

Answer 7

It works with my dog... but I don't grab him but the scruff of the neck or anything like that...

Hmmm a behaviorist... What about Cesar Millan? He is one of the best and he uses many alpha techniques, although that is not all he teaches, and I tend to follow his advice.


I do not doubt that there are other techniques that work... but saying that dominance techniques does more harm than good is a bit over the top.

Answer 8

I definitely have to go with Loki here.

I too have a Siberian and a Malamute, as well as two smaller dogs. I am alpha over all of them and they know this. When I'm not around, my wife is next in line. My dogs even realize that they are underneath my children in the pack.

This is what dogs expect. While they have been domesticated for 100's of thousands of years, they still have their instincts for pack hierarchy.

Answer 9

I saw you go off on this in another question, so I see that it's boiled over...:)

I don't advocate "alpha rolls" or any of the other over-the-top crap that some people have come up with.

That said, I do recognize the existence of pack hierarchy in the domestic dog. I see ample evidence of it every day.

Yeah, I am the alpha. I am. I break up dog fights simply by walking into them, I stare down intact males trying to start BS with each other, and I assert my dominance on a daily basis, purely with the attitude of calm control that I exert over my dogs. They do what they're told. Period.

I have packs of 8-10 dogs who run with each other. I watch their dynamic like a hawk. When I walk into the yard, I am the boss. When I'm sitting outside the yard, their "natural" order kicks in.

Dogjudge, you must surely recognize this: That certain type of male dog -- you go to stack his front, your head/chest over his head, and he grumbles. He doesn't much like your position over him, and he sure as hell doesn't want you to move his front legs. This used to happen to me in Malamutes all of the time when I handled them, and I have a Ch. male Siberian who did/does the exact same thing. We have a talk, it's over.

I see evidence of hierarchy awareness *all the time* -- and I don't see why it's so difficult to accept. Maybe it's just the breeds I deal with...?

Let me emphasize again that I assert dominance through attitude and body language, and by requiring that the dogs do what I ask. I don't "alpha roll", and I would never suggest it -- especially to the average pet owner.

Maybe not what you were looking for, but my personal opinions.

ADDED:
I do agree with you that people "abuse" the concept. But I've seen a lot of comments around here recently that the concept itself does not exist in the domestic dog...and that is simply not true.

Answer 10

Alpha dog theories WORK!
Grabbing the dog by the scuff of the neck isn't the only method used, and if they are a good behaviorist they use it at the last resort, if at all.



WHAT DO YOU THINK TRAINING A DOG IS??????????
YOUR TELLING THE DOG WHAT TO DO

IE: DOMINANCE