Why can't you be a 'Good Turk' and also believe that the Armenian genocide happened?

Question

I'm not Turkish .. but I have been reading the Turkish forum here..

And I would like to know why it is so important to believe the Armenian genocide never happened...and that if you say it did you are a traitor to Turkey..

I'm not an expect on the subject..So I won't make a judgemnent either way.. but I don't understand how if the genocide did happen it reflects badly on modern day Turkey.. Becaause it was a long time ago.. and a lot of people did bad things then..
All Germans admit the holocaust happened.. and nobody thinks Germany is a bad country now


Can you be Patriotic/Pro Turkish and still believe that Armenian genocide happened? Why is it necessary for every Turk to believe the same thing??


(I hope this question didn't offend. It is not meant to :-)) I'm just interested to know what Turkish people think about this)

@T Jones Thanks for that 'answer' but I don't think you are representing Turkey well. This is a free forum, and I have right to ask what I want. This question is only asking for opinion..no need to get all uptight.

@T Jones other Turkish answerers have answered me with good manners.. and shown respect. It would refelect better than you if it could do the same.



@ This question is not about whether Genocide happened or not (I'm not expect to make clain one way or another) but whether people have right to believe it happened.

Thank you for your answers so far..

1)understand that one of the reason is.. that you don't believe that genocide.. happened. and so it is hard to respect those who you think are wrong..
but that doesn't really answer my whole question.. as why don't people have the right to believe something that you believe is wrong..
you know some people believe in God.. others don't but it doesn't make them a bad person. So even if someone belives in the genocide.. they don't need to be against Turkey...And as Missy said what about Orhun Pamuk


2)I understand that genocide is an emotive word.. and it is hard to define what is genocide, and what is not..But that time was a tragedy for the Armenian people.. and crimes were commited. It sounds very harsh to say, just no genocide.. wouldn't it be better to say that some actions that were taken.. were wrong.. and wouldn't happen today

@habisce , If you are curious :-))
Well, you know that the Yugoslav wars were very complicated.. and crimes were commited by all sides.. but yes Serbs commited the most crimes (they were the strongest side) And yes genocide did happen against Bosnians as stated by the international court about Srebrenica.
(IBTW I know that the Armenian genocide was also a complicated issue too)



@BTW..For those you ask..why I don't ask this about Armenians?
I haven't yet read an Armenian who said that someone is a bad Armenian.. who didn't believe that genocide happened..

@BTW Why do stupid insults get my thumbs up that factual answers..
I might not agree with Anlarm.. but he has answered based on facts.. why as he only got 3 thumbs up.. when T Jones has 9.. Why are Turks (I assume) thumbs up an answer that is basically just a stupid insult rather than a well argued factual answerr.. that supports the same thing..
If this is a serious issue.. shouldn't facts be used to argue with not insults?

@Leprechaun I do understand how you feel..but I have only asked a question about the Armenian genocide once (this one) I used to live in Turkey.. and honestly.. I don't think the Armenian genocide ever came up once.. It just wasn't an issue..
However since reading..many Q+As on yahoo answers about the subject.. I really wanted to know about the strong feeling about the subject..
I'm aware that this is a delicate subject.. that is why I ask on yahoo answers.. rather than my Turkish friends..

Of course no one needs to answer if they don't want.

habisce Thanks for informing me about ASALA ..I researched about what Armenians did too. I am aware that it is a very complicated issue.. It still doesn't mean that my question isn't valid.

@istanbulbogazi Hi, My account is 1 yr old at level 7.. So I'm nobody's sock puppet..
This is a genuine question.. I'm sorry if my writing style seems that I am trying to make a point. It is not meant to. I'm trying to be as neutral as possible. I even said that I wasn't going to comment whether Armenian genocide happened or not. I am just asking what your opinions are of those who believe the oposite of the common Turkish view..

@Tramp.. I do make a lot of typos but I really do worry about your comprehension skills. I was asked for my opinion on the wars in yugoslavia. I gave it saying that there was genocide.
And from that you conclude I'm Serbian pretending to be Muslim???
From that same statement Habisce concludes that I'm Bosnian.. So are you right or Habisce.
I then ask another Q about islamic swim suits.. since I am thinking of wearing one.. And you tell me you are reporting me for propaganda links. There isn't even any link in any of these questions

I will leave this question open for a bit longer.. but I would like to refocus the question on the main topic.

It is not about whether the Armenian genocide is true or not (If you read all the details of my question you will see that I'm very careful not to say one way or another) but rather about what you think of those who believe it happened.

Too many are just answering about the genocide itself.

THIS IS A QUESTION ABOUT DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM OF SPEECH...

I gather that most here think that you can't be a good Turk if you believe in the genocide??

1)Why is that.. Can't they do other good things for Turkey

2)What about respecting differing opinions.. You know Voltare said I don't agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


Thank you for all the answers so far that weren't personal insults, death wishes, or racist.

Answer 1

Unfortunately, as Turkish people, we can not offend the motherland. Turkish people are good people. We have a rotten history of changing truth. If laws would allow freedom of speech we can read and write freely. We will go to jail because if we say something that insults are country we can go to jail.

Ataturk made many great changes in our land but he covered up many other things as well. One of them being the topic of your question.

Imagine you grow up all your life and know Turkish friends and family in this day and age and someone tells you that our people comitted mass murder (genocide)! What a shock to the system. You will run down the street and ask your father and grandfather, "what did you do". Why would he want to admit it to you. Like Ataturk, our grandfather and fathers washed their hands clean of the blood as Ataturk gave them to chance to start all over again. We did not have to worry about that, it was taken care of and done with. Now we will rewrite what we need. Ataturk said to take what you need from history. That is what he did. School books do not talk about genocide.

To this day the word Armenian is considered to be Back Stabber in Turkey. One paragraph in books said this for decades as to the Armenians of 1915. Nothing more or less. To call someone Armenian in Turkey is worse then calling someone a dog to this day.

Can you see that is what you are dealing with. We just got hit with a big stick in the stomach. How can we believe this is true.

Logically I have to look at many other things in the world.
I believe the reality is that to be patriotic and believe the genocide took place is easy but the society that Turkish people live in does not allow it. There are too many laws.
Imagine this...the journalist and intellectuals of Turkey always say "the supposed genocide" when dealing with this issue. Why? Because if they said it any other way they will go to jail or get hunt down by the Grey Wolves. When the media in Turkey is breathing this atmosphere created laws that allow them not to speak freely what will happen to the masses. Couple all this with what I said earlier about Ataturk changing how life in Turkey was changed by him then you got a boiling pot of not NON BELIEVERS but Masses that just do not know.

To answer your question, the laws of the land must change as far as freedom of speech AND freedom of thought. At that point we can become patriotic. For Turkish people to be true Turkish patriots, we must be able to speak freely AND think freely. We can not think if we have someone, big brother (government laws, extremist), breathing down your back saying "if you write this you will be killed". So, it is a problem in society that has been created.

Turkis people can not be patriotic and say these things you say. If the laws change in our country, it is the duty of Turkish people to do so and be patriotic. It is the duty to question our fathers and their fathers acts. It is the duty and right of all Turks to freely think for once and for all. It would then be UNpatriotic to do otherwise.

Answer 2

They think that speaking of the genocide is the reason for enmity among us (Armenians and Turks). It's completely wrong, but the way Turkish government is following makes that enmity deeper.
The problem is not only on the "genocide" subject, but on the whole "Turkish history". You can not even tell them about facts of the Ottoman empire.
When you say that was a cruel or backward government, they will call you traitor, lier, enemy and so...
What do they learn in school? That has been always interested me. I am really interested what they learn about their history.
They are completely blind about their past, and that is the main problem.

The genocide has happened about a century ago, organized and done by the crazy party, "Ittihad ve taragi" (union and progress). Speaking of that doesn't mean insulting the current government or the people, this is really silly to think this way.
It was not realized and punished at the time, so Hitler said : "...after all, who speaks of the Armenians?"
We want justice and peace in the world, we want this old enmity be resolved and that is not possible without justice.

Turkey can not hide that fact for ever, its impossible, and it is better for Turkey to be logical, open eyes and look at the past.

Nearly all Turks think that Ottoman empire leaders and Ataturk they were all good people, from the heavens!
The smallest criticizing you do, you will be called enemy!
The problem is ultra-nationalism.

Answer 3

I do not have any idea about good Turk.
There is not any armenian horror story here. It is something invented by armenians. Armenians put themselves in air. This is their culture. They never accept they were minorities in Seljukid and Ottoman Empires, then Russian Empire, and USSR. Armenian opinion leaders still in the same way to lead their people for great armenia, superior race. Look at the end result. I have over 1000 years of my family's registered history in Anatolia. They never met with armenians. Armenians lived in a small area in Eastern anataolia in Ottoman's great country covering eastern europe, anatolia, meddle east, north africa.

Answer 4

Unfortunately some bad things happened during that time but it was war time.Turkish side never denies what happened and opens the war archives which says somewhere between 200-300 thousand Armenians were died during the relocation.Armenian side refuses to open the archives and says 1,5 million Armenians were killed systematicly but never mention about what happened to the Armenian population in Istanbul or the other major cities of the empire.They don't want to answer how 1,5 million can be killed while whole Armenian population in the empire was 1 million.They don't want the world to know that who started the conflict or what would be the punishment of betrayel during the time period.On the other hand Ottoman empire was not alone in the 1st WW,nothing could be found in the German archives,or British or French not even in the Russian.
All we can say now is it was a sad occasion,unfortunately happened but it can not called genocide it was only one of the sad,blody massacres of the 1st WW.

Answer 5

I think this disagreement should be solved by a football match between the national teams of Turkey and Armenia. The winner will conclude whether Turkish or Armenian is the right.
And I really wonder why the talk about something if really happened was in 1890-1915. How many years had passed for this? and we are talking about it now. Why we don't talk about things to be happened in the year 2007 by the USA, UK and other supporting wars to kill thousands of helpless people for no reason?

Answer 6

your way of asking your question not a way to

agreee, not a way to understand

JUST yOU IGNORE

you do nothing except ignoring

do you know what today go infront of the mirror and ask yourself

who am i to judge people and their history?Who am İ ?

Do i really read books do i have a Turk friend at all to understand


Nooo ,during years we had Armenian friends,Jew friends
The other Ottomans(İ name Armenians,jews,Turks,Arabs whoever lived in Ottoman as OttOMAns)we talked with them we argued with them but never İgNORED

nOne of us ignored each ,Because we all knew that İgnoring is just a way to express your weakness

THAT IS ALL

Answer 7

My answer has nothing specific to do with Turkey or Armenia.

Bottom line, if you are in a group and verbalize a different opinion you are likely to be ostracized.

Ironically, the more empirical evidence to support our opinion you have relative to the group opinion, the more vociferous and even violent the reaction would be.

This is known as GROUP THINK and it is a ubiquitous and particular insidious form of human behavior.

Classic examples of GROUP THINK are:
* Failure of Bay of Pigs Invasion
* The dot com explosion and subsequent implosion
* Failure to recognize 9/11 early warning signs
* Nazi Germany
* Post-9/11 US Terrorism Policy

In short, under group think powerful and influential members of a group will promulgate information as if it were fact when indeed it is false. The leaders and their minions use pressure techniques to get others to beleive or at least express the false information.

Those who will not succumb to the pressure or present evidence to the contrary will eventually be eliminated from the group.

Unfortunately, Group Think is pervasssive and their is very little an individual can do to counteract it.

My personal involvement has led me to this conclusion.

Those groups that demonstrate Group Think behavior should be avoided if at all possible.

It is funny to empirically prove that a group is involved in Group Think behavior, however. This can often be done in a business situation where the Group Think behavior creates a legal liability for damages.........

Simply document the behavior and outline the consequences.

Then make sure your documentation comes to light during litigation.

There is nothing more satisfying than taking treble damages from some @$$hole who insisted he or she was right in the face of overwhleming evidence to the contrary!

Answer 8

this is for all of u who think the armenian genocide didnt happen...a few facts.
1) if it didnt happen why do they assasin every armenian in turkey that believes. ie hrant dink
2) persidents of the us have admitted to not acceptiing it because of turkey being a valuable allie.
3)yes armenians did kill some turks but as a position in world war not to exterminate them.
4)there are diarys from british residents in armenia that have seen these acts
5)Most important ther are survivors of the genocide today that
have living prooof!!!!!!!!!!!!
6) if it didnt happen then how did millions of family members disappear.why is it that are armenians are spreaded around the world.
turks are just greeddy because if they admit something against humanity they will have to give the land they stole from armenia(proof from old maps) and pay money for damages.

its not that they dont believe its if they do BIG consequences...so they dont want to believe

Answer 9

We Americans are the same. If you admit to any wrong Americans ever did, some people accuse you of being a bad American--'Blame America First', 'Why do you hate America?'

The Armenian genocide was a terrible thing. It's understandable that a lot of Turkish people would really like to believe it never happened. Certain leaders -tell- them it never happened, so they believe it because they want to.

But you can admit that your country did bad things without hating your country. I love the USA but we had slavery for hundreds of years, we killed most of the people who lived here before we arrived. We have gotten into unnecessary wars around the world and killed a lot of people and caused a lot of misery. I think I can admit these things and still be a faithful American.

Answer 10

Really, if you want to known the truth , please read these sources!
"I witnessed and lived through 1917-1918"
author:Lt.col TVerdohlebof
-Russian commander of the 2.armenian-russian fortress artillery regionent.



http://www.divshare.com/download/358325-22b

Find out what Armenian Premier Senin Ovanes Kacaznuni said in 1923 Dashnak Party
Conference in Bucharest-Romania, about Armenian treachery. Available from
[e-mail] ISBN 975-343-438-3 or from TPK [e-mail]


You may peruse www.tallarmeniantale.com , by
author Holdwater & http://www.eraren.org/bilgibankasi/en/index.htm The “Armenian
Research” Foundation

Read on internet www.tallarmeniantale.com/c-f-dixon-BOOK.htm, written by a British
officer in 1916 – the portrayal of Anatolian Armenian character



Examine Guenter Lewy's "The Armenian Massacres in Turkey, A Disputed Genocide"
ISBN-13:978-0-87480-849-0 available on Amazon.com (Jewish author from USA)

Salahi Sonyel's "The Turco-Armenian Imbroglio" ISBN-0-9504886-6-6, available at
Cyprus Turkish Association 0207 437 4940 [e-mail] (Cypriot Turk
author)

films to watch are:
"The Armenian Revolt 1894-1920" documentary DVD by Third Coast Films, P.O. Box 664,
Clarion, PA 16214, USA, [e-mail] (by an American Director) This is
a MUST !!

&
"Sari Gelin' documentary DVD through www.sarigelinbelgeseli.com
[e-mail] (maybe available
on eBay) (by a Turkish Director)

have a look at www.armenians-1915.blogspot.com
by Turkish Armenians (including free
downloadable books and automatic translation of site text into several languages),

Read Prof. Turkkaya Ataov's WHAT HAPPENED TO OTTOMAN ARMENIANS?

ISBN 1=4243=1004-0 (obtainable from [e-mail]), (Turkish author)

"MYTH OF TERROR' by late Erich Feigl (1986)Zeitgeschichte/Bucherdienst Austria
(Austrian Author) which contains the signatures of 63 foreign Academics refuting the
Armenian claims



http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/terrorism-breakdown.htm

for Armenian terrorism against Turks.. why Armenians are not talking about their
terrorists?

an interesting read (in 3 languages) of memoirs of a Russian Officer on Armenians at
http://www.tsk.mil.tr/ermeni_sorunu/kitap.htm (click on the book for downloading) or
access it and others at
http://www.tsk.mil.tr/eng/ermeni_sorunu_salonu/armenianissues_index.htm (from
Turkish Military archives reputed to be richest on this issue)

There are also several powerful books on this subject by the American author
Justin McCarthy
http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~dwilson/Armenia/mccarthy.html

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